In H.E. 3.39, Eusebius of Caesarea provides both information about Papias and quotations from Papias (hyperlinked in blue)
A Few of the Scriptures that Make me Post-Millennial
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In H.E. 3.39, Eusebius of Caesarea provides both information about Papias and quotations from Papias (hyperlinked in blue)
Imagine that they would write and speak in a similar fashion as we do.Clearly hyperbole is a literary device used at times by the author/s of Scripture.
Just as is/are prose, poetry, parallelisms, metaphors, similes, euphemisms,
idioms, personification, and parables (there may be others). Chiasms,
acrostics, alliteration, allusion, imagery, paradox... to name a few more
So rather than assume some normalcy in language use, people will create absurd doctrine. Sounds about right.
but what is clear, we have Church fathers claiming John told them 2 things.
1. the Second Coming happens at the 6,000 year mark
2. the Dead is Resurrected then Jesus sets up His Earthly Kingdom for 1,000 years in New Jerusalem
according to most historians including some Jewish, we are at the year 5, 887, which coincides with 1948 resurrection of Israel as a Nation and the Blessed 80 year Generation at 2028 for possible beginning of Tribulation and ending 2035. but no one really knows other than we know its CLOSE!
1. the Second Coming happens at the 6,000 year mark
2. the Dead is Resurrected then Jesus sets up His Earthly Kingdom for 1,000 years in New Jerusalem
according to most historians including some Jewish, we are at the year 5, 887, which coincides with 1948 resurrection of Israel as a Nation and the Blessed 80 year Generation at 2028 for possible beginning of Tribulation and ending 2035. but no one really knows other than we know its CLOSE!
2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.942
(a) Irenaeus and the majority of other fragments about Papias affirm that Papias knew John the apostle (Shanks, 288-291). Irenaeus’ testimony is particularly weighty given that he is even earlier than Eusebius and plainly states that Papias was a “hearer of John” (Haer. 5.33.4).
(c) Papias states plainly that he “learned from the elders” (Hist eccl. 3.39.3). A few sentences later, Papias describes the “words of the elders” as “What Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the disciples of the Lord, were saying” (Hist. eccl. 3.39.4). In other words, it seems that Papias uses the word “elders” to refer to the apostles.
I must say I find it somewhat amusing when people will claim they take the whole Bible literally.
Of course they often do that with a holier-than-thou attitude (some people excel at that) while
claiming someone else does not believe the Bible simply because they have a different understanding
on some matter. Such a preposterous statement from them hardly hides an obvious intent to insult.
There were two people named John. One was John the Revelator and the other John the presbyter...
It is believed that it was the second that he knew, not the Apostle, not the Revelator. Elder can be anyone.
i am aware of both John's. and you make a valid point.
but i tend to agree with Ireneaus, who was around during Papias' lifetime, and assumedly knew since they both were alive at the same time.
When I read verses like in Isaiah 9, it confirms my belief in a future kingdom period, for two reasons the first being it fits perfectly into my eschatology viewpoint, and second the opposite appears to be happening today.
I mean lets go and ask randoms on the street what they think of the King who is governing over the earth today, is He increasing daily with wisdom and goodness being established and justice and truth is freely flowing to all in this time of peace. Its not happening.
Also Jesus said broad is the path to destruction and narrow is the way to life and few be that find it, He knows theres a parenthesis age and sometimes talks about it, you are saying more and more are answering the call to salvation, yet I dont even see this happening now or in the future 1000yr period sure there will be peace and prosperity but a lot of the nations appear to end up rebelling yet again.
I admit I do not read much commentary or any old writings, but from a pre mill view Gill seems to be consistent in his writings and you may have misunderstood him, he has a spiritual view of this church age and a physical view of the millennium, like all dispeys?
Also in his introduction to Ezekiel 48 he refers to both his first coming and his second coming and in his first coming he came to the temple as prophesied and will also come into the third temple, which funnily enough until recently wasnt a possibility. I presume all dispeys agree with this.
The Jews blindness as I see it is they were expecting a King to come and to rule the world with a rod of iron, as the head of the nation of Israel, alas Jesus comes along with no intention of setting up the physical kingdom that was prophesied (YET) so everything was not as they expected for they focused only on certain portions of scripture concerning the Messiah.
I see post mil doing a similar thing, instead they are focusing on the other half of scripture concerning the Lord and His spiritual kingdom and forcing everything into it, where as us dispeys take both halves and see them as both having to take place so we have two comings, two kingdoms, two ages, two wars against Israel, etc etc
A 2,500 yr gap? from the end of the 69th week we are now at about the 1989 year mark as I believe the gap is about 2000 yrs the nect few years are going to be interesting.
Have to agree with you here, scripture seems to say Satan is bound now, But the spirit of Antichrist is in the world today.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Keeping with the them things will wax worse and worse until the Lords appearing in the future the Antichrist will set himself up as king of the world, and will demand world wide worship,
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Yeah but there's always been an air of doubt, it's why the views didn't actually gain any kind of widespread adoption.
Dinner was nice (Cornish game hens.. lol) I believe I am tired though so not sure I'll make an actual post in the other thread before bed. If not I'll do so with my morning coffee...
God bless you and yours..
Dinner sounded yummy
i understand why you are taking the position you do. but if ireneaus is right or wrong concerning that Papias knew the Apostle John, your article did say what Papias claimed came from those who [[did know]] the Apostle. it's what was claimed to me that is more important than who knew who.
looking forward to tomorrow's post!
God Bless You <3
What in your source supports your assertion that Papias admitted that he did not know the apostles? It says but 'Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends."
So he knew John and Eusebius said that he did not claim in his his prefect that he was an eye witness of the apostle_s_ and Eusebius thinks he learned it from their friends.
That is different from Eusebius admitting he had not heard the apostles.
All the apostles teach us to be on our guard against the devil who walks around as a roaring lion seeking someone to devour.
The devil is not the strong man, he has no goods to spoil. What the Pharisees were saying was that Jesus healed by the power of the devil, somehow [they supposed] the devil managed to break into God's dwelling and rob His blessings.
Your understanding of scripture is woeful. You read it from within the confines of Preterism which is woeful. All that Jesus foretold in the Olivet discourse simply has not come to pass yet. Only the temple was destroyed and the Jews taken captive and Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles .... until the times of the Gentiles are complete.
The church will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds.
Not in this age for the whole world is in rebellion against God and the church just prior to the Lord's return.
don't be daft, China was not reached, India, Africa, it's not even clear if Paul reached Spain.
Earlier you said you believed the saints would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at his coming, or did I misunderstand you? Do you now deny it?
The term comes from an Anglicized form of a word found in the Latin Vulgate translation:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus
Wasn't Matthew Henry postmil?
He believed in the rapture, from his commentary on I Thessalonians 4.
>>(3.) Those that shall be found alive will then be changed. They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, v. 17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1 Co. 15:51. <<
from: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/1_thessalonians/4.htm