A Double Standard in Christianity?

[Dino246]

Some other questions to ask are:

"Who among you may put a believer out of the church?" "How often does it happen?"

I don't know that it has ever happened in the 12 years I've attended there.

"Who among you may correct a believer, face to face, for an error in their ways?"

Any believer.

"How are pastors or elders chosen?" (if it's through a democratic process of selection then it is not of the kingdom)

Already answered.

"How are gifts within the saints recognized?" and "Are they permitted to function when you come together?"

Typically through small groups, and yes. However, not all gifts are for "when you come together".

Please answer the same questions for yourself.

 

[SophieT]

At the inception of the U.S. any form of kingly rule was rejected. There is no wonder why it is rare to find U.S. believers who understand the order of the Kingdom. Authority is misunderstood in the church, especially the church in the U.S. We see it has "who gets to rule over whom" like it's merely a position of hierarchy.

You can get to the brass tacks of the issue by asking "Who watches over your soul and gives an account to the Father?" If they answer "No one" or "My pastor, who I don't know", etc. then there is no example of Kingdom authority in their church. This is common in U.S. churches because of the desire for independence especially independence from scrutiny. U.S. church tends to embrace a "Just me and Jesus" order of authority that creates an environment of lawlessness where each person does what is right in his or her own eyes.

Some other questions to ask are:

"Who among you may put a believer out of the church?" "How often does it happen?"
"Who among you may correct a believer, face to face, for an error in their ways?"
"How are pastors or elders chosen?" (if it's through a democratic process of selection then it is not of the kingdom)
"How are gifts within the saints recognized?" and "Are they permitted to function when you come together?"

Such questions will be offensive to a believer in an environment of lawlessness. They will be quick to throw in (out of context) all the verses that they think insulates them from giving an account to anyone. They have no context of delegated authority. Without it the apostles could not write:

"Brethren, join in following my example..."
"What do you want? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness?"
"You are to imitate me, just as I imitate Christ."
"Therefore I urge you, imitate me."
"I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church."
"..though I might be very bold in Christ to command you what is fitting, yet for love’s sake I rather appeal to you..."
etc.

interesting...I just noticed you have 'not Christian' on your bio...so what is your belief then?

there is no example of Kingdom authority in their church

no thank you. sounds cultish

 

[Aaron56]

interesting...I just noticed you have 'not Christian' on your bio...so what is your belief then?

I'm a believer and a son of the Living God.

no thank you. sounds cultish

And yet these are all examples from scripture. See how far we've come from the standard? There is no kingdom grace within the "Just me and Jesus" crowd.

 

[Aaron56]

I wrote:

There is no kingdom grace within the "Just me and Jesus" crowd.

In this example I am not equating salvation with kingdom grace and I am certainly not saying those without the grace of the kingdom are not saved. The gospel of Salvation is merely part of the Kingdom, and yet our "Christian gospel" often starts at the cross.

The relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the first example of the Kingdom of God. We are translated from the kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of the Son He Loves upon salvation. There, as infants in Him, we are to go on to maturity. This includes applying the apostle's doctrine to our own lives and within the congregation of the saints. While Jesus is the Great Shepherd, for example, He empowers saints to be shepherds of others. This is delegated authority. In a kingdom, all servants of the king function only by delegated authority and by decree of the king. God, as the perfect King, has no advisors and He does not rule by the consent of the governed. In a Representative Republic, like the United States, people choose their own leaders by majority votes. They choose their own laws by majority votes. In these issues they are accountable to no one. In many churches the same is true; they choose their own elders, pastors, leaders, building plans, etc. by majority votes. This is idea is from terrestrial government.

Imagine, if you will, your body functioned in such a way: before the brain could send a signal it had to get consent from the other parts. Or, if your home was run in such a way: where the children could decide, by majority rule, that they could play in the street and have candy for breakfast. We are given the natural to show us the spiritual. There is a certain order in the natural that displays the reality of the order in the Kingdom of God. It is so foreign to us that we reject it outright when we hear it. It is because, in our democratic society, the consent of the governed has always determine the course of the nation. "We the people..." have always decided what we should do. When it comes to understanding the ways of the King and a kingdom, this has been to our detriment.

 

[justbyfaith]

As concerning position in salvation, men and women are equal.

However, there are passages that teach us that women are not to teach or usurp authority over a man, in scripture.

1Ti 2:9, In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10, But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11, Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12, But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13, For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14, And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15, Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1Co 14:33, For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34, Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35, And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36, What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37, If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38, But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

[SophieT]

I'm a believer and a son of the Living God.



And yet these are all examples from scripture. See how far we've come from the standard? There is no kingdom grace within the "Just me and Jesus" crowd.

then why did you put 'not Christian'? do you think Christians are not believers and sons of daughters of the Living God? what is up with that kind of an answer?

no there are no examples in scripture of someone having absolute authority in a body of believers....try elders

 

[DavidTree]

some folks want a good kick in the end zone

Field Goal Kick would hurt more.

 

[Dino246]

As concerning position in salvation, men and women are equal.

However, there are passages that teach us that women are not to teach or usurp authority over a man, in scripture.

This is at least the third time you have posted these verses. You have not yet demonstrated that you understand what "usurp authority over" means. Please do so.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is at least the third time you have posted these verses. You have not yet demonstrated that you understand what "usurp authority over" means. Please do so.

Just what it says in the English.

I'm uncertain that I can find words to describe what that means, except to say that "usurp authority over a man" means "usurp authority over a man."

I'm uncertain why you need me to provide a definition for this.

Do you not understand the English language?

 

[Dino246]

Just what it says in the English.

I'm uncertain that I can find words to describe what that means, except to say that "usurp authority over a man" means "usurp authority over a man."

I'm uncertain why you need me to provide a definition for this.

Do you not understand the English language?

I didn't ask you so I can learn what the words mean, and I will never ask you so I can learn what any words mean. What I want to know is whether you know what they mean. In this case I will have to conclude that you don't.

 

[justbyfaith]

I didn't ask you so I can learn what the words mean, and I will never ask you so I can learn what any words mean. What I want to know is whether you know what they mean. In this case I will have to conclude that you don't.

I do understand what they mean; while I don't know that I can readily define them with other words.

Comprehending something doesn't necessarily mean that you can think of the words to describe that something. It registers in your brain; but in searching your brain for terms that are synonymous, one can sometimes come up empty.

So, suffice it to say that I know what it means.

Since you are not requiring that I give you a definition, I suppose that this part of the argument is finished.

 

[Dino246]

I do understand what they mean; while I don't know that I can readily define them with other words.

Comprehending something doesn't necessarily mean that you can think of the words to describe that something. It registers in your brain; but in searching your brain for terms that are synonymous, one can sometimes come up empty.

So, suffice it to say that I know what it means.

Since you are not requiring that I give you a definition, I suppose that this part of the argument is finished.

Okay... given that you claim to understand the term...

If, at a church you were visiting, a woman got up and began preaching from the Bible, would you conclude that she is "usurping authority over a man"?

 

[SophieT]

I do understand what they mean; while I don't know that I can readily define them with other words.

Comprehending something doesn't necessarily mean that you can think of the words to describe that something. It registers in your brain; but in searching your brain for terms that are synonymous, one can sometimes come up empty.

So, suffice it to say that I know what it means.

Since you are not requiring that I give you a definition, I suppose that this part of the argument is finished.

just saved myself 1000 words and I don't even use Geico

 

[Aaron56]

then why did you put 'not Christian'? do you think Christians are not believers and sons of daughters of the Living God? what is up with that kind of an answer?

no there are no examples in scripture of someone having absolute authority in a body of believers....try elders

I believe the label came from Rome according to Roman tradition, as one who is a follower of the message of a philosopher. The gospel of Christ is not a philosophical message. It is one of transformation, kingly culture, and grace.

And to your second sentence, I agree in so far as we can agree that it would have been foolish to act contrary to Paul’s example, or John’s, Peter’s, etc. It is easy to recognize that they wrote with authority today. How difficult it might have been to follow the directions of an old fisherman or even one who used to persecute your brothers. Discernment would have been needed to listen to these men.

All these men referred to those closest to them as their children. Paul went so far as to say he birthed some, as men “begot” their progeny. This is the grace I believe was restored with the appearing of John the Baptist, who was the Elijah to come. The grace of fathers and sons built into a real household that displays the royal priesthood and grace of Christ Jesus the Lord.

I will have more to say about this later but many here cannot bear it now.

Grace and Peace,
Aaron56

 

[Dino246]

I will have more to say about this later but many here cannot bear it now.

^^^ unabashed arrogance ^^^

 

[justbyfaith]

Okay... given that you claim to understand the term...

If, at a church you were visiting, a woman got up and began preaching from the Bible, would you conclude that she is "usurping authority over a man"?

Only if she did not have a covering over her ministry in the form of a man who is visibly over her in the church; who might be able to correct her teaching in the case that she might be deceived in anything.

For it is written,

1Ti 2:13, For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14, And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Which indicates that women, being more spiritual, are also more susceptible to being deceived since men are more analytical.

 

[justbyfaith]

View attachment 232569

just saved myself 1000 words and I don't even use Geico

You can certainly listen to a woman preacher and it would not be a violation of scripture.

What is prohibited is when a man is sitting under a woman and that woman has no covering over her in the church to make sure that everything is alright.

 

[Dino246]

Only if she did not have a covering over her ministry in the form of a man who is visibly over her in the church; who might be able to correct her teaching in the case that she might be deceived in anything.

Your response confirms to me that you don't understand the meaning of "usurp authority over". Please, for your own sake, go and look up the word "usurp" in a good dictionary.

For it is written,

1Ti 2:13, For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14, And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Which indicates that women, being more spiritual, are also more susceptible to being deceived since men are more analytical.

Where do you get such codswollop? That is called eisegesis, and it's not a sound interpretive practice.

The passage says (and implies) nothing whatsoever about any other woman. NOTHING!

 

[Dino246]

What is prohibited is when a man is sitting under a woman and that woman has no covering over her in the church to make sure that everything is alright.

Where is that prohibition explained in Scripture?

 

[SophieT]

You can certainly listen to a woman preacher and it would not be a violation of scripture.

What is prohibited is when a man is sitting under a woman and that woman has no covering over her in the church to make sure that everything is alright.

did you pass your finals in English?

people must snicker in your church if you get up to speak and talk like this

I can't even