A complex question about free will and Calvinism

[LostSoul]

If we have true free will and our decisions are not the result of movements of particles which we have no control over, this would undermine Calvinism.

It would also appear to undermine causality.

 

[Magenta]

Try reading a Book called "The Bible"!

You'll find "free will" clearly revealed in it!

The Bible says those who sin are slaves to sin. Are slaves free?

God makes it possible for us to choose Him.

Our own natural will is hostile to Him.

 

[throughfaith]

I have a complex question about free will and Calvinism, as the title of the thread suggests.
Here it is:

If one could know the position and momentum of every particle at the time of the big bang, any future event could be calculated.
These future events would include the motion of neurotransmitters and electrical activity in the brain, both of which contribute to decision making.
Therefore, do we really have free will?
If we don't have true free will, which my thought experiment would seem to suggest, then is Calvinism true?

Before anybody throws Heisenberg at me, Heisenberg simply suggests that the more accurately you measure one variable, the less well you can know the other. Regardless, every particle does have a definite mass and velocity.

The origin of Calvinism is Augustines Manechian gnosctism. So the philosophy of determinism is blended with christianity.

 

[throughfaith]

The Bible says those who sin are slaves to sin. Are slaves free?

God makes it possible for us to choose Him.

Our own natural will is hostile to Him.

A slave can recognise his bondage . Just like a drug addict realises his bondage and slavery to drugs .

 

[Magenta]

A slave can recognise his bondage . Just like a drug addict realises his bondage and slavery to drugs .

Like Paul recognized his and his powerlessness over it.

 

[posthuman]

If one could know the position and momentum of every particle at the time of the big bang, any future event could be calculated.

hang on.
that's called "determinism"

Neils Bohr & Albert Einstein famously argued about this, writing letters back and forth to each other. this was in the days quantum theory was being developed. Einstein argued that the universe was deterministic, and Bohr disagreed. Einstein lost the argument.
this is the context of the quote you may have heard:

Einstein wrote, "God does not play dice with the universe" ​

Bohr replied, "Who is Einstein to tell God what to do?"​

​

 

[Nehemiah6]

If one could know the position and momentum of every particle at the time of the big bang, any future event could be calculated. These future events would include the motion of neurotransmitters and electrical activity in the brain, both of which contribute to decision making.
Therefore, do we really have free will?

Physics and Metaphysics or Theology are unrelated. And the Big Bang is simply a myth. Also the TV series by that name is simply annoying.

For the truth of the matter Christians (at least) should rely wholly on the written Word of God -- a divine revelation. Only God -- the triune Godhead -- was present at creation. And there was no Big Bang. Furthermore God created mankind in His own image and likeness. Which implies free will. But free will is confirmed in the fact that God gave Adam and Eve just one commandment and they disobeyed Him. Had they not had free will they would have done exactly as they were commanded.

The Calvinistic notion of "Total Depravity" is not biblical at all. The fallen human race does have free will, and all men are commanded to repent. Which means that all men in their lost condition can respond to the Gospel. They can either obey or disobey the Gospel. Otherwise the preaching of the Gospel would be pointless.

 

[posthuman]

Physics and Metaphysics or Theology are unrelated

ok, if that statement is true, then what does this mean -

that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them, for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead
(Romans 1:19-20, kjv)
​

?

 

[Lafftur]

That's circular I'm afraid, and doesn't address the question in my original post.

No, it’s not circular.....it’s foundational to ALL creation.....love.

Human reasoning is blind to love because God has hidden Himself...even in plain sight.

Only those that CHOOSE to know and love God will find Him.

Your philosophical hamster wheel will keep you busy going around in circles but, you will only be right where you began.......knowing nothing.

 

[throughfaith]

Like Paul recognized his and his powerlessness over it.

Yes exactly. Paul recognised the issue .

 

[Lafftur]

1 John 4:19

Amen! God CHOSE to love us and we CHOSE to love God because He first CHOSE to love us!

LOVE has to have a FREE WILL CHOICE.

 

[throughfaith]

1 John 4:19

The love was demonstrated by the cross for the whole world.

 

[Magenta]

The love was demonstrated by the cross for the whole world.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

 

[Deuteronomy]

If we have true free will....

Hello LostSoul, it would be helpful to understand what you mean by, "true free will" My understanding is that whenever someone is capable of choosing what he/she desires the most at a given moment in time, their will is "free". Do you have the same or a different understanding of "free will" (and if different, what is your definition of "free will")

...this would undermine Calvinism.

Calvinism is a systematic theology, so in the end, who cares Quite frankly, what I've seen "undermined" most often where Calvinism is concerned isn't Calvinism, rather, it's what people "think" Calvinism is & what it teaches, because there is so much confusion and misunderstanding about what it actually teaches (sometimes it seems, even among those who call themselves Calvinists).

That being the case, why not set aside Calvinism (and every other systematic theology) and simply focus on the Bible and what it has to say about this topic instead?

~Deut
p.s. - if you want this to continue to be a discussion about Calvinism, you should explain what 'you' believe Calvinism teaches concerning free will, so that we can all start out on the same page with you.
.

 

[throughfaith]

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I prefer the kjv on that verse 'are saved ' It being foolish to those that are perishing ,says more about their rejection of it than to say they are ' unable ' to believe it . Many take years after hearing the gospel over and over and over before they finally believe. Many refuse ,( free will ) to believe the truth so as to be saved .

 

[throughfaith]

John 7:17 - If ANY MAN will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If we don't have true free will, which my thought experiment would seem to suggest, then is Calvinism true?

There is no "ism" that is "all truth". All "isms" begin with a grain of truth. However, at some point, there is a straying from truth and the further along that "ism" path a person goes, the person ends up lost.

It is amazing to me to find that as we read God's Word and truly consider what it is that God wants us to know, God then works in our hearts to increase our understanding of His Way and His Truth.

And, yes, it is a lifetime of learning and each time God reveals more of Himself to us, we are ever more amazed at God's magnificence.


Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[phil36]

I must admit I know next to nothing on particles..etc etc

But I do know that even the smallest particle is upheld by Jesus. If Jesus stopped upholding the universe the particle would also cease to be.

---- In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. - Hebrews 1:1-4.

---- He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. - Colossians 1:17.

---- But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. - 2 Peter 3:7.


All I can say is everyday I freely choose to thank Jesus for what he has,is and will do

 

[phil36]

Hello LostSoul, it would be helpful to understand what you mean by, "true free will" My understanding is that whenever someone is capable of choosing what he/she desires the most at a given moment in time, their will is "free". Do you have the same or a different understanding of "free will" (and if different, what is your definition of "free will")


Calvinism is a systematic theology, so in the end, who cares Quite frankly, what I've seen "undermined" most often where Calvinism is concerned isn't Calvinism, rather, it's what people "think" Calvinism is & what it teaches, because there is so much confusion and misunderstanding about what it actually teaches (sometimes it seems, even among those who call themselves Calvinists).

That being the case, why not set aside Calvinism (and every other systematic theology) and simply focus on the Bible and what it has to say about this topic instead?

~Deut
p.s. - if you want this to continue to be a discussion about Calvinism, you should explain what 'you' believe Calvinism teaches concerning free will, so that we can all start out on the same page with you.
.

Hi Deuteronomy,

I enjoyed your post. The only one thing I noticed is you say that some people basically debate against Calvinism without knowing what it is. I agree . (and vice versa)

But I would have to point out to you that the reformed view of Faith is not a 'Systematic Theology'. Are Anglican,Baptist,Methodist,Lutheran systematic theologies? Like reformed they do have systematic theology books.

Systematic theology can be a good study help an example:

If I where to ask you to tell me what the whole bible says about Jesus, your answer simply put would be a systematic theology.

So for anyone don't ignore systematic theology..its a beneficial help...if you like a lot of reading that is lol

 

[Magenta]

I prefer the kjv on that verse 'are saved ' It being foolish to those that are perishing ,says more about their rejection of it than to say they are ' unable ' to believe it . Many take years after hearing the gospel over and over and over before they finally believe. Many refuse ,( free will ) to believe the truth so as to be saved .

I noticed that, as I checked multiple translations Interestingly enough, the NKJV has "being saved" also

About 2/3 of the translations do