a born-again Christian can never (keyword: never) lose their salvation

[Deuteronomy]

Hi again @BibletruthSOP, I'm afraid that I'm still a bit confused about what you believe (since you seemed to say, in essence, that STOP SINNING was the Gospel in your earlier post .. though I realize that I've probably misunderstood what you were trying to say in one way or another).

Perhaps we are on the same page however, and simply use different terminology to explain the same thing? So if you don't mind, let's see if we can figure out how close .. or far apart .. we are.

For instance, I would say that the omni-temporal "News" from God is this, a person needs to be inherently innocent and righteous to stand in His presence in the age to come (well, left to our own devices anyway, IOW, outside of Christ). My understanding of "innocent" in this case is that a person NEVER does anything wrong, ever. And my understanding of "righteous" is that a person never fails to do the good that needs to be done, IOW, never fails to do the will of God, perfectly.

Agree?/Disagree? (if you disagree, please explain why you do .. thanks!)

Now, the "bad news" is this:

1. no one is either innocent or righteous, in and of themselves .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12, 23; Ephesians 2:1-3 and,​

2. no one, apart from Christ, can become either innocent or righteous, nor do we have the ability to atone for the sins we've committed (which is why the punishment for sin outside of Christ is eternal, because no one can fully atone for their own sins, ever).​

Agree?/Disagree? (again, if you disagree, please tell me why you do)

Finally, the "Good News" is that the Father has chosen to mercifully/graciously save certain sinners on the basis of faith/belief in Jesus, and in the works He did for us/on our behalf when He walked among us (His life, and His death on the Cross, and His Resurrection). God accomplished this for us by crediting/imputing our sins to His Son's account, and by crediting His Son's righteousness to ours .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Also, considering who Jesus is, as well the fact that He was/is perfectly innocent and righteous, His death was more than adequate to atone for our sins, and to satisfy His Father's wrath against us in the age to come .. cf Romans 5:8-10. Therefore Jesus is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement and satisfaction for our sins.

Agree?/Disagree?

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[Endoscopy]

LOL (friendly)...that's like saying if you can lose an arm, then you must earn an arm....no...doesn't work that way

I stand by what Jesus said.

John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[TLC209]

One of these views is right and one of these views is "right" (im not here to argue). But which view carries the fear of the Lord. Because that is what all must have as Christians. If we are truly born again and sealed we must fear the Lord. So if we dont want to be thrown out with the tares, and in the line with the goats, lets do according to scripture and walk in love. Resting assured in our faith in Christ.

Quit debating and disputing. It doesnt get anywhere.

 

[TLC209]

Matthew 25:27 - So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. The central point of the parable is the importance of being a faithful servant of what God has entrusted to us. The first two servants were obviously faithful, but the third servant was faithless.

The parable does not identify the third servant as a Christian. "Buried his money in the ground, wicked, slothful, unprofitable servant who is cast into out darkness" is NOT descriptive of a Christian.

BINGO! The Israelites were referred to by God as "My servant whom I have chosen" (Isaiah 43:10) even though not all of the Israelites were saved.

Yes, the righteous are God's people and yes, all the righteous will be saved. *Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Of all those who are justified, how many of them will be glorified? ALL of them. *Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You misinterpret this verse, just as Roman Catholics misinterpret it. Once again, as quoted from Proverbs 11:31 and reinforces the point that if it is with great difficulty, suffering, pain and loss that the righteous are saved, what will become of the ungodly man and sinner? Peter was not implying that it's hard to be saved in the sense that it's hard to work for and earn your salvation, as if only those who win a gold medal in the Olympics will be saved and everyone else will perish.

What about Moses? He did not make it into the promised land. Is Moses in heaven?

Matthew 22:14 - Called (2282 - kletos) in Matthew 22:14 is talking about the general call of the gospel which goes out to all men every time the gospel is preached.

In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read <Adjective, 2822,kletos> "called, invited," is used, (a) "of the call of the Gospel," Matt. 20:16; 22:14, not there "an effectual call," as in the Epistles, Romans 1:1,6,7; 8:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2,24; Jude 1:1; Revelation 17:14; in Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2 the meaning is "saints by calling;" (b) of "an appointment to apostleship," Romans 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:1.

Called (2564 - kaleo) in Romans 8:30 conveys the idea of an effectual call and emphasizes God's sovereign work. There is a distinction between the called (klhtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called. Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *Paul did not say here that many were called and justified but few were glorified.

You continue to read the Bible through the lens of salvation by works, which is not the will of the Father. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Was Judas called? By Jesus? Just a curious question. If Judas was called, is Judas in heaven? I read that Judas was sent to his own place.

Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

 

[TLC209]

Think why he is using the subject of sanctification. Think. Context, PennEd, context!

He's contrasting sanctification by the blood of animals with that of the blood of Jesus (Hebrews 9:13). Also, see Hebrews 2:11 and 13:12. Sanctified most definitely means saved in this letter in this context.

Don't make the Bible not mean what it says just to guard a sacred doctrine. That's dishonest. I used to do that but I got called out on it and have repented. Be honest, PennEd.

As a concession to you and the revelation you say you have received about this subject, it is mature believers who attain to a status where they can not stop believing and be lost. Immature believers are the ones in danger of going back to the world in unbelief, not those among us who have the word firmly rooted in our hearts and are bearing it's fruit. That is what we are to strive to attain. We are not to take comfort, or give comfort, through a doctrine of 'once saved always saved'.

Hey you hit it dead on. Why are we gonna promote the blind leading the blind (osas). But to point out what you said about the mature believer as compared to new born babes. Jesus taught its like the soil who when the Word falls on them but then the cares of the world makes them turn back yields no fruit. So is the mature believer attributed to good soil. It is that good soil that yields fruit hundred fold.

We are that good soil if we remain and be doers of the word and not mearly hearers. The word is the seed. We are the soil. Which soil we are determines our walk. And only those who produce fruit remain. The bible says all who do not produce fruit will be cut off and thrown in the fire.

 

[UnderGrace]

Hey you hit it dead on. Why are we gonna promote the blind leading the blind (osas). But to point out what you said about the mature believer as compared to new born babes. Jesus taught its like the soil who when the Word falls on them but then the cares of the world makes them turn back yields no fruit. So is the mature believer attributed to good soil. It is that good soil that yields fruit hundred fold.

We are that good soil if we remain and be doers of the word and not mearly hearers. The word is the seed. We are the soil. Which soil we are determines our walk. And only those who produce fruit remain. The bible says all who do not produce fruit will be cut off and thrown in the fire.

And exactly how much is that before we can thrown into the fire?

 

[TLC209]

I'm going to ask everyone that disagree with me this question, How do you know that you have been filled with the holy spirit? Because he is not teaching you the same thing he is teaching me. Or perhaps , they do not have eyes to see, or ears to hear. If you don't match my answer, then you are not spirit filled.

Bro I agree with most of what youve said minus we earn salvation. Thats just impossible. I think you meant to say preserve our salvation until the end as somethibg precious to us because Jesus suffered for us. And that to me means I owe Him my praise and my gratitude. To each his own.

The answer to your question is we are transformed. The Holy Spirit fills us its something supernatural and a feeling or experince that we cant really describe but for me I felt immerged in His Spirit and was brought to tears. And I was made a new creature. Im not the same. The old me is dead.

Answer ur question? And I agree with alot of what you said. But dont think the other view isnt saved. Youre trying to make an opposition to your view mean that they dont have the Holy Spirit. I personally take being "saved" out of the equation.

Anyone can claim they are saved, yet as some have stated many will say Lord Lord but may not even been saved to begin with. Whoever lives in the Spirit and does Gods will. Thats who I prefer to call my brother. Anyone else can claim to be something they are not. You know them by their fruit.

 

[TLC209]

And exactly how much is that before we can thrown into the fire?

I dont know Im not God to know. But I know God is a forgiving God and His mercy endures forever. God is love. And love is longsuffering and patient.

Does that give any insight to your question? He doesnt give up on us. He keeps tugging at peoples heart. Its up to the person to be open to God and turn to Him. Or there is consequences.

 

[UnderGrace]

I dont know Im not God to know. But I know God is a forgiving God and His mercy endures forever. God is love. And love is longsuffering and patient.

Does that give any insight to your question? He doesnt give up on us. He keeps tugging at peoples heart. Its up to the person to be open to God and turn to Him. Or there is consequences.

Why are we gonna promote the blind leading the blind (osas).

No not really, what exactly is God long suffering and patient about?

If He does not give up then why is OSAS the blind leading the blind, since you said God does not give up?

 

[PennEd]

One of these views is right and one of these views is "right" (im not here to argue). But which view carries the fear of the Lord. Because that is what all must have as Christians. If we are truly born again and sealed we must fear the Lord. So if we dont want to be thrown out with the tares, and in the line with the goats, lets do according to scripture and walk in love. Resting assured in our faith in Christ.

Quit debating and disputing. It doesnt get anywhere.

Think how silly this post is. Where does it say wheat will become tares or ANY wheat be destroyed with the tares? It says the OPPOSITE:
Matthew 13:24-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”


And how silly is it to say that some sheep are going to morph into goats. There are no shoats or geeps in the kingdom!

 

[TLC209]

Think how silly this post is. Where does it say wheat will become tares or ANY wheat be destroyed with the tares? It says the OPPOSITE:
Matthew 13:24-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”


And how silly is it to say that some sheep are going to morph into goats. There are no shoats or geeps in the kingdom!

You clearly didnt read the part where I clearly said debating and disputing get us no where. But thats all you like to do. I dont see the love of God in you. Will you turn the other cheek and carry on?

If you dont like what I had to say move along. You haven't offered any words edifying to me or anyone who might read your words. And your not going to. So why bother? The Holy Spirit is not a deceiver, so how can you say you walk as a believer and scoff at your brother? He who does not love his brother who he can see, how can he say he love God whom he does not see?

Brothers we decieve ourselves if we walk around arrogant and talking down to others. We are to walk in the love of Christ if you are really a sheep in the flock. I see a bunch of wolves wearing masks trying to blend in. Im not impressed. I keep the full armor and the sword with me.

Who can be against me? Greater is He who is in me, so why argue with YOU? But here this is for you little brother.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[mailmandan]

Was Judas called? By Jesus? Just a curious question. If Judas was called, is Judas in heaven? I read that Judas was sent to his own place.

Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas was not called (effectual call) justified and glorified (Romans 8:30). Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) and was referred to as the son of perdition.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

if I can stop being a sinner on earth, then show me how

Jesus is your example

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Hey!!!! A bit of fruit! That's RIGHT! They THOUGHT they were saved, but they NEVER were. That's just the point.

Could they have thought they were once saved always saved? A yes answer, well think about that and what it means to the value of the OSAS idea.

 

[PennEd]

One of these views is right and one of these views is "right" (im not here to argue). But which view carries the fear of the Lord. Because that is what all must have as Christians. If we are truly born again and sealed we must fear the Lord. So if we dont want to be thrown out with the tares, and in the line with the goats, lets do according to scripture and walk in love. Resting assured in our faith in Christ.

Quit debating and disputing. It doesnt get anywhere.

Think how silly this post is. Where does it say wheat will become tares or ANY wheat be destroyed with the tares? It says the OPPOSITE:
Matthew 13:24-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”


And how silly is it to say that some sheep are going to morph into goats. There are no shoats or geeps in the kingdom!

You clearly didnt read the part where I clearly said debating and disputing get us no where. But thats all you like to do. I dont see the love of God in you. Will you turn the other cheek and carry on?

If you dont like what I had to say move along. You haven't offered any words edifying to me or anyone who might read your words. And your not going to. So why bother? The Holy Spirit is not a deceiver, so how can you say you walk as a believer and scoff at your brother? He who does not love his brother who he can see, how can he say he love God whom he does not see?

Brothers we decieve ourselves if we walk around arrogant and talking down to others. We are to walk in the love of Christ if you are really a sheep in the flock. I see a bunch of wolves wearing masks trying to blend in. Im not impressed. I keep the full armor and the sword with me.

Who can be against me? Greater is He who is in me, so why argue with YOU? But here this is for you little brother.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

No. You clearly say you don't debate. Meaning anyone who disagrees with your works, trampling on the Blood of Christ doctrine is wrong, and you are right.

Well guess what? YOU DONT get to control what other people say.

So don't be bitter or surprised because Christians are going to correct your great error.

 

[PennEd]

Could they have thought they were once saved always saved? A yes answer, well think about that and what it means to the value of the OSAS idea.

Yup. They definitely thought they were saved. BUT NOT BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!! Instead by THEIR WORKS to attain or maintain Salvation.

Note they didn't say "Lord, Lord, didn't we trust in You and Your work?"

 

[BibletruthSOP]

You are flesh and blood, not Jesus Christ. the creator of all things. Your flesh is weak.

Consider that Jesus is our example; also consider Hebrews 2: 14-18, etc. Jesus had no advantage over the born again. Just think what born again means...new man, new creature, all things new.

 

[TLC209]

Well guess what? YOU DONT get to control what other people say.

So don't be bitter or surprised because Christians are going to correct your great error.[/QUOTE]
Why would I be bitter? Bitterness is of the devil. Who says youre a Christian?
Let me ask you where is my error? Didnt Jesus say there are tares among the wheat. And we will find out who they are at the end when the harvest.

So when did I say that tares were wheat? Or wheat would become tares? Your eyes decieve you.. but I know where your spirit comes from. Your spirit is not one of love. How long do you want to be rebuked? Keep it coming...

 

[PennEd]

Well guess what? YOU DONT get to control what other people say.

So don't be bitter or surprised because Christians are going to correct your great error.

Why would I be bitter? Bitterness is of the devil. Who says youre a Christian?
Let me ask you where is my error? Didnt Jesus say there are tares among the wheat. And we will find out who they are at the end when the harvest.

So when did I say that tares were wheat? Or wheat would become tares? Your eyes decieve you.. but I know where your spirit comes from. Your spirit is not one of love. How long do you want to be rebuked? Keep it coming...[/QUOTE]
Ahh, so now you want to debate.

Please trust solely in Jesus to save you and keep you saved.

Any works you do thinking are necessary to attain or maintain Salvation is your grest, insulting to Jesus error.

I can give you the one true Gospel unto Salvation if you want, and then you too can become a Christian.

 

[TLC209]

Why would I be bitter? Bitterness is of the devil. Who says youre a Christian?
Let me ask you where is my error? Didnt Jesus say there are tares among the wheat. And we will find out who they are at the end when the harvest.

So when did I say that tares were wheat? Or wheat would become tares? Your eyes decieve you.. but I know where your spirit comes from. Your spirit is not one of love. How long do you want to be rebuked? Keep it coming...

Ahh, so now you want to debate.

Please trust solely in Jesus to save you and keep you saved.

Any works you do thinking are necessary to attain or maintain Salvation is your grest, insulting to Jesus error.

I can give you the one true Gospel unto Salvation if you want, and then you too can become a Christian.[/QUOTE]
Works cannot obtain salvation. You cant buy or earn your way into heaven. What doctrine teaches you that? Catholics? Im not a catholic.

Works needed to maintain salvation? If seeking to honor God and please God is works for you then maybe you are not saved at all? The only works I seek is to honor God and live my life pleasing to Him.

Let my works show my faith. This faith which Jesus did for me a sinner who did not deserve it. I can only glorify God. He calls me His son. And I believe.

So I find myself on a Christian forum to share in Gods love for me and for all of us. Which Jesus demonstrated on the cross. If you cant get the concept what are you doing with your life?

Paul taught we are to live for Jesus. The one who bore our sins. If thats too much work for you, why do you call yourself saved?

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.