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good start is to stop committing sins. if you are commiting Y sin, stop doing it.
its very simple. as Jesus said, pluck it out. its possible to stop sins on this earth, only the devil would tell you its impossible to repent. titus 2:11.
it is what the prophets and apostles echo throughout the bible, cleanse your hands your sinners, purify your hearts, cease to do evil, turn to me, hear my voice, be doers not hearers only.
every book of the bible has that same message.
its not sinless perfection to stop commiting the sins that DQ you from the kingdom listed in galatians 5:19-21(and elsewhere).
there is a big difference between commiting adultery or bearing false witness or worshiping an idol and making a mistake in judgment. but because modern churches are largely detached from the tanakh, they have no understanding that there is sinning with a high-hand, willful rebellion and then there is mistakes in judgment, flaring of temper. etc.
its very simple. as Jesus said, pluck it out. its possible to stop sins on this earth, only the devil would tell you its impossible to repent. titus 2:11.
it is what the prophets and apostles echo throughout the bible, cleanse your hands your sinners, purify your hearts, cease to do evil, turn to me, hear my voice, be doers not hearers only.
every book of the bible has that same message.
its not sinless perfection to stop commiting the sins that DQ you from the kingdom listed in galatians 5:19-21(and elsewhere).
there is a big difference between commiting adultery or bearing false witness or worshiping an idol and making a mistake in judgment. but because modern churches are largely detached from the tanakh, they have no understanding that there is sinning with a high-hand, willful rebellion and then there is mistakes in judgment, flaring of temper. etc.
even though i agree with your point about what is the point of discipling anyone in the osad system when all that will happen is a loss of rewards at the end of the day. who is worried about rewards? we dont even know what the rewards are, specifically.
i must still say if you want to have a good conversation that produces fruit. i believe christian love, meekness and a humble spirit that is teachable and willing to learn and change when presented with God's truth are keys.
we can have all our ducks in a row and all the doctrine air-tight but if we have no love, what good is it?
the conversation we are having in my what comes next thread and ahwatukee's thessalonians topic is great and uplifting, even the ones from differing views.
my heart rejoices to see the conversation unfold.
perhaps i will create a topic with some anti-osas verses or present them here and we can all take a look at them together and see where the spirit leads us. who has misunderstood and what and how?
i must still say if you want to have a good conversation that produces fruit. i believe christian love, meekness and a humble spirit that is teachable and willing to learn and change when presented with God's truth are keys.
we can have all our ducks in a row and all the doctrine air-tight but if we have no love, what good is it?
the conversation we are having in my what comes next thread and ahwatukee's thessalonians topic is great and uplifting, even the ones from differing views.
my heart rejoices to see the conversation unfold.
perhaps i will create a topic with some anti-osas verses or present them here and we can all take a look at them together and see where the spirit leads us. who has misunderstood and what and how?
The comments in here from themselves are what they believe I assume. And it is those stated comments as worded which I address, including pointing out the obvious conclusions of those lines of belief and keeping in mind what those beliefs do to the character of God. I have no idea who the people are...man, woman, young, old, etc. and there is no personal ill will. I realize I am very pointed in my wording so the reader understands precisely what I am saying. Thanks
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This is not what scripture states, if it was this easy, people would have done it for years. Its not just this easy.
We need to do it as scripture says To seek after the things of the spirit. Not after the things of the flesh. It is our mind focus that breaks us from the bonds of sin, Are we loving others (the law of love) or putting our needs above others.
We need to do it as scripture says To seek after the things of the spirit. Not after the things of the flesh. It is our mind focus that breaks us from the bonds of sin, Are we loving others (the law of love) or putting our needs above others.
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Once again
YOUR WRONG IN YOUR ASSUMPTION.
Get over yourself and stop thinking YOU KNOW what people believe.
A person who has FAITH in God. Is going to want with passion to do the first two commands God asks us to do (baptism and making disciples) If they can not even do those things, do they even have real faith in God?
Your trying to assume motives, based on your FALSE assumption of what those who believe in eternal security (or as you call it OSAS) believe.
YOUR WRONG IN YOUR ASSUMPTION.
Get over yourself and stop thinking YOU KNOW what people believe.
A person who has FAITH in God. Is going to want with passion to do the first two commands God asks us to do (baptism and making disciples) If they can not even do those things, do they even have real faith in God?
Your trying to assume motives, based on your FALSE assumption of what those who believe in eternal security (or as you call it OSAS) believe.
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My point was if you cannot lose your salvation , there is nothing that needs attention concerning your salvation. You totally misunderstood what I said. I don't believe I have expressed the slightest idea that a person has anything within themselves that can obtain salvation, merit it, etc. The issue is what happens when one who has been converted would later come to Not rest in Him, would come to Not believe (obey) Him.
OSAS says, bottom line, "doesn't matter...heaven is assured". And that is 100% error according to the bible. OSAS always try to deflect the core question and desperately try to paint anyone who disagrees with them as being salvation by works oriented, hoping they can wiggle out of addressing the question....because there is no God glorifying answer to it, only a Satan glorifying answer. And please don't get upset....just think it through...you cannot ignore dozens and dozens of bible passages that repudiate such an idea. Even John applies the verses OSAS folks constantly use to those who hear, to those who follow, not to those who at some time heard or followed.
OSAS says, bottom line, "doesn't matter...heaven is assured". And that is 100% error according to the bible. OSAS always try to deflect the core question and desperately try to paint anyone who disagrees with them as being salvation by works oriented, hoping they can wiggle out of addressing the question....because there is no God glorifying answer to it, only a Satan glorifying answer. And please don't get upset....just think it through...you cannot ignore dozens and dozens of bible passages that repudiate such an idea. Even John applies the verses OSAS folks constantly use to those who hear, to those who follow, not to those who at some time heard or followed.
its simple, its not easy. it is what the scriptures states. i talked what Jesus said. "if your right hand causes you to sin......" for its better to go into heaven with one hand than to hellfire with two.
the reason people dont do it is not because its easy or hard, its because people love sin. there is pleasure in sin for the flesh for a season. thats why.
the reason people dont do it is not because its easy or hard, its because people love sin. there is pleasure in sin for the flesh for a season. thats why.
Are you advocating for people to pluck out their eyes and chop off their hands?
See here's the problem with the sinless perfection doctrine in trying to slice and dice sin into neat little packages like willful, and accidental, or a momentary flare up. WE start to define which sins are willful and which sins God is just gonna turn a blind eye on cause they weren't "willful".
When we do that we lower GOD'S perfect standard, that ALL sin is willful.
The willful sin that results in fiery judgement is the willful sin of hearing the Gospel and going back to a works for Salvation approach. Like some of HEBREWS that Paul is addressing in HEBREWS that said "yeah, we're cool with Jesus, but we STILL need to get circumcised and sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for our sins" In essence trampling on Christ's Blood and insulting the spirit of Grace.
That's why works doctrines are so very dangerous. They appeal to our flesh that thinks, "I know Jesus died for my sin, but there has to be SOMETHING I can/need/have to do to attain or maintain what HE DID".
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"But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—[if] indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard,"
"We have come to share in Christ [if] we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.
"By this gospel you are saved, [if] you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
"For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
It is not OSAS no matter water you do or how we live. Our eternal security depends on the believer continuing in faith. Not just a one-time faith, but on-going faith. If a believer turns back to willfully live according to the sinful nature, once in that state, the believe is accumulating sin and is on their way to death. By going back to the sinful nature a believer is no longer having faith, no longer bearing fruit and no longer being transformed into the image of Christ.
"When I tell righteous people that they will live, but then they sin, expecting their past righteousness to save them, then none of their righteous acts will be remembered. I will destroy them for their sins. "
If a believer turns from his faith, going back into the world and begins to willfully live according to the sinful nature, his previous works of righteousness cannot save him. He must repent and turn back in faith in order to cover those sins. As long as the believer in Christ continues in faith, then He/she has eternal security. But a believer does not have eternal security regardless of how he lives his life. Regarding this, consider the following:
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
In the scripture above, we can conclude that James is speaking to believers by addressing them as "My brothers." Suffice to say, in order for one to "wander away" from the truthy, they would have had to have previously been in a right state. But, if another believer turns person back from his/her wandered state back to faith, then all of those sins that they were accumulating in that wandered state are covered over and are no longer on their way to death.
Eternal security is assured for those who continue in Faith, from beginning to end. Whenever we read a promise regarding salvation and eternal life, we should remember that the promise is dependent upon continuing in faith.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith (from first to last)—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
Our part is faith, from beginning to the end
"We have come to share in Christ [if] we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.
"By this gospel you are saved, [if] you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
"For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
It is not OSAS no matter water you do or how we live. Our eternal security depends on the believer continuing in faith. Not just a one-time faith, but on-going faith. If a believer turns back to willfully live according to the sinful nature, once in that state, the believe is accumulating sin and is on their way to death. By going back to the sinful nature a believer is no longer having faith, no longer bearing fruit and no longer being transformed into the image of Christ.
"When I tell righteous people that they will live, but then they sin, expecting their past righteousness to save them, then none of their righteous acts will be remembered. I will destroy them for their sins. "
If a believer turns from his faith, going back into the world and begins to willfully live according to the sinful nature, his previous works of righteousness cannot save him. He must repent and turn back in faith in order to cover those sins. As long as the believer in Christ continues in faith, then He/she has eternal security. But a believer does not have eternal security regardless of how he lives his life. Regarding this, consider the following:
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
In the scripture above, we can conclude that James is speaking to believers by addressing them as "My brothers." Suffice to say, in order for one to "wander away" from the truthy, they would have had to have previously been in a right state. But, if another believer turns person back from his/her wandered state back to faith, then all of those sins that they were accumulating in that wandered state are covered over and are no longer on their way to death.
Eternal security is assured for those who continue in Faith, from beginning to end. Whenever we read a promise regarding salvation and eternal life, we should remember that the promise is dependent upon continuing in faith.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith (from first to last)—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
Our part is faith, from beginning to the end
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simple not easy.
its not me that is defining which sins. i said in my message that its God who does it. this is why its fundamental to study the tanakh. read what the books of Moses have to say. its sinning with a high-hand willful sin that hebrrews 10:26 refers to, (in numbers if im not mistaken) and there are presumptuous sins:
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who makes a mistake, when he sins unintentionally, to make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.
Num 15:30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people.
see? its God defining it not me. this is what paul was quoting in hebrews. sinning with a high hand. and you are wrong there are unintentional sins, all sin is not willful as you claimed.
will you accept the truth or persist in this mistake? i hope you admit the truth my friend. God's spirit leads to all truth. lead us Lord Jesus to all truth amen. open all the seeking eyes
its not me that is defining which sins. i said in my message that its God who does it. this is why its fundamental to study the tanakh. read what the books of Moses have to say. its sinning with a high-hand willful sin that hebrrews 10:26 refers to, (in numbers if im not mistaken) and there are presumptuous sins:
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who makes a mistake, when he sins unintentionally, to make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.
Num 15:30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people.
see? its God defining it not me. this is what paul was quoting in hebrews. sinning with a high hand. and you are wrong there are unintentional sins, all sin is not willful as you claimed.
will you accept the truth or persist in this mistake? i hope you admit the truth my friend. God's spirit leads to all truth. lead us Lord Jesus to all truth amen. open all the seeking eyes
Yeah, Jesus is GREATER than Moses or the Law. He is the fulfillment of the Law. That is PRECISELY why we can be righteous in Him. And just to make crystal clear just how impossible it is for YOU not to follow the Law Jesus lays it out in the Sermon on the Mount: So lowering God's standard of perfection is what we do when we parse sin. And you are wrong about Hebrews. The whole point of chapter 10 is dealing with HEBREWS wanting to back to the animal sacrifices to atone for sin. That is what they willingly sin about. They CONTINUED sinning willfully denying Jesus was the SOLE, SUFFICIENT, ONE TIME NECESSARY Sacrifice for Sin.
Sinless perfectionists have to constantly redefine sin, and or lower God's standard, which IS perfection. You willingly sin all the time. We don't even have to talk about the willing sins of omission. There are plenty made of commission. How many "willing" sins does one have to commit before somehow losing the Sealed Holy Spirit and Salvation? Go examine those laundry lists of sins chronicled in Galatians and elsewhere, and honestly ask yourself if you've EVER engaged in ANY of them, and don't forget the AND THE LIKE, since you became a Christian. And remember, as Jesus says below, EVEN just THINKING about them is the same as committing them.
Murder Begins in the Heart
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Marriage Is Sacred and Binding
31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Jesus Forbids Oaths
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Sinless perfectionists have to constantly redefine sin, and or lower God's standard, which IS perfection. You willingly sin all the time. We don't even have to talk about the willing sins of omission. There are plenty made of commission. How many "willing" sins does one have to commit before somehow losing the Sealed Holy Spirit and Salvation? Go examine those laundry lists of sins chronicled in Galatians and elsewhere, and honestly ask yourself if you've EVER engaged in ANY of them, and don't forget the AND THE LIKE, since you became a Christian. And remember, as Jesus says below, EVEN just THINKING about them is the same as committing them.
Murder Begins in the Heart
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Marriage Is Sacred and Binding
31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Jesus Forbids Oaths
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
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Just to add to what you stated. I pulled this excerpt from Gotquestions.
In His Parable of the Sower, Jesus identifies the ones who fall away as those who receive the seed of God’s Word with joy, but, as soon as a time of testing comes along, they fall away. James says that the testing of our faith develops perseverance, which leads to maturity in our walk with God (James 1:3–4). James goes on to say that testing is a blessing, because, when the testing is over and we have “stood the test,” we will “receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him” (James 1:12). Testing comes from our heavenly Father who works all things together for good for those who love Him and who are called to be the children of God (Romans 8:28).
Our faith must withstand the tests. Thats the endurance till the end. These are approved by God. Any other faith is just thin air. The trials and storms come, and like building a house on sand, great is its fall.
In His Parable of the Sower, Jesus identifies the ones who fall away as those who receive the seed of God’s Word with joy, but, as soon as a time of testing comes along, they fall away. James says that the testing of our faith develops perseverance, which leads to maturity in our walk with God (James 1:3–4). James goes on to say that testing is a blessing, because, when the testing is over and we have “stood the test,” we will “receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him” (James 1:12). Testing comes from our heavenly Father who works all things together for good for those who love Him and who are called to be the children of God (Romans 8:28).
Our faith must withstand the tests. Thats the endurance till the end. These are approved by God. Any other faith is just thin air. The trials and storms come, and like building a house on sand, great is its fall.