Agreed.
[... and just so you know, I had added to my post after you grabbed it... providing more explanation in that post = ) ]
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Agreed.
[... and just so you know, I had added to my post after you grabbed it... providing more explanation in that post = ) ]
Your Claim Is (False)
NO, his claim is truth. John STARTS the Day of the Lord or the day of His wrath at the 6th seal but doesn't end it. So the rest of the book is all part of the Day of the Lord. Your verses only speak of it coming. Find a scripture where it ends.
"He will come with ten thousands of His saints..."
"They" in end times scriptures could reference "the church," or "Israel" or "the nations." Because these three groups are all talked about in end times scriptures. We must study to see which group a scripture is pointed to. SO MANY jump on a scripture as if it was referencing the church, when it truth, it is for Israel. Case in point? Luke 21.
No scripture? In Revelation the great crowd too large to number is seen in heaven before the 70th week begins. That is the very idea of "pre..."
Paul tells us his rapture / gathering comes first - just before wrath and just before the Day of the Lord. That is what "pre" means.
"By GRACE are you saved through FAITH
How many times did Jesus say, "your FAITH has saved you...?"
Everything we get from heaven comes by and through FAITH.
Having faith in the pre-trib rapture for salvation is not the gospel Jesus preached.
That is the most outlandish and unbiblical statement you could make! Those with an open mind to truth who read through Rev 19, 20 and 21 know that the Millennial Kingdom is literal and BEGINS with Jesus Christ's return to earth to END the Tribulation, then "rule the nations with a rod of iron" for 1,000 literal years, then the loosing of Satan to gather another rebellion called Gog and Magog, which Jesus destroys with the breath of His mouth. At THAT TIME, the GWT judgment occurs, and all unbelievers and fallen angels will be cast into the lake of fire, and THEN there will be a NHNE and believers enter the eternal state, on the new earth.
Yeah lot and noah were delivered post judgement...correct?
And the two escape verses do not exist ...correct?
And the rapture verses ( all in peacetime ) are from the context of your destroyed earth model????
But the real kicker is that your model has Jesus coming at the end of the gt on billions of horses while at the same time coming DURING THE GT and sitting on a cloud holding a sickle.
So busted...and so oblivious.
Why would that be "wiser"? If "millions have found" evidence for a pre-trib rapture, are the pre-tribbers on this thread just not competent enough to know where the verses are? Seriously.
If there is evidence, how come none of the pretribbers have presented any? I was taught pretrib rapture from my early youth. I simply accepted what I was taught. But when I was challenged to support my belief, I realized I couldn't. There isn't any evidence of raptured believers going to heaven.
If that will occur, how come NO rapture verse mentions the trip?
No, it doesn't mean a pretrib rapture. All you've done is create a construct.
What you don't have is any verse that mentions that raptured believers go to heaven. So you have to construct the scenario out of "whole cloth".
Doesn't work.
Esp since 2 Thess 2:1-3 clearly speaks of the Second Advent (coming of our Lord) and the rapture (our gathering) at the same time.
And Matt 24:19-31 specifically places the "gathering" at the END of the Trib.
And Acts 3:21 says that "Heaven must receive Jesus until the restoration of all things". And the Greek word translated "receive" means "to receive and retain, to contain". Which is why a number of translations simply have "remain in heaven until the restoration".
And, the resurrection of trib martyrs is described as the FIRST resurrection in Rev 20:5. And that in contrast to the "raising of the dead unbelievers" for the GWT judgment. So it is clear that "first" here means "first in order".
So, this is conclusive evidence that the resurrection and rapture of believers occurs when Christ returns to earth at the Second Advent.
Everything else is just a construct. And a very flimsy one at that.
This is a very weak argument. The phrase about "from one end of heaven to the other" obviously refers to the sky, which covers the earth. iow, the phrase includes everyone on earth. Why not?
Or do you really believe that there are souls floating around in the heavens, only to be gathered at some future point in time???
Well, the BIBLE says that tribulational martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection. So you have a problem on your hands.
All you've done is create a number of raptures at different times.
When Jesus Christ returns to earth at the Second Advent, He will bring EVERY saved person in history. Prove me wrong. Most will be resurrected, since they already died, and a few (in contrast) raptured.
Nope totally unequivically wrong^
--Matthew 24:40,41
--Luke 17:34,35,36
[NOT "our Rapture" event, like those old movies had portrayed was the case]
____________
What those verses actually speak of, is this:
--the one "taken" is taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day);
--the one "left" is left on the earth, to repopulate the earth (just as in Noah's day;
Comp. Dan2:35 with Gen9:1 along with these passages... where those two verses [Dan2 & Gen9] both say, "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth")
Read it again. Jesus shifts to "before" the flood.
Then pay attention to his ending of that thought. "BE READY, WATCH,WAIT"
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh
Now in the same time bracket;---->
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Once context is added it cannot be ANYTHING BUT the pretrib rapture.
- One taken /left...sleeping in the same bed...in peacetime setting...BEFORE THE FLOOD/GT ....ONE VIRGIN TAKEN /LEFT.....the rapture hands down...solid bible.
This is really funny. Have you actually read through all of Revelation? It is ALL about and FOR the church.
Rev 1-
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The first 3 chapters are DEDICATED to 7 churches.
Given these 2 "bookends" which mentions "the churches" clearly, one doesn't need to ask where there is any mention of "churches" in the intervening chapters. That's called closed mindedness.
So you are just going to ignore about 4,000 years of dead saints that are already in heaven, huh? Sheeesh.
Keep in mind that there are now about 2,000 years of NT believers in heaven already. So by the time the Second Coming occurs, the VAST MAJORITY of NT believers (church) will already be in heaven. So your claim doesn't change anything.
Most of church age believers will already be in heaven when the resurrection/rapture occurs.
Matt 23:39
“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”
That one verse alone utterly destroys your aberrant eschatology. Upon reading it your mind should be absolutely flooded with Old Testament prophecy, and Biblical patterns and types.
If and only if you know and understand the Scriptures of course.
^
--Matthew 24:40,41
--Luke 17:34,35,36
[NOT "our Rapture" event, like those old movies had portrayed was the case
____________
What those verses actually speak of, is this:
--the one "taken" is taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day);
--the one "left" is left on the earth, to repopulate the earth (just as in Noah's day;
Comp. Dan2:35 with Gen9:1 along with these passages... where those two verses [Dan2 & Gen9] both say, "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth")
Now luke 17 in context
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lot os a prejudgement dynamic
No way is that thought post gt.
No way.
Plus you have a believer in bed with a devil worshipper that has the mark of the beast.
It can ONLY be pretrib and the rapture itself.
then the rapture happens post tribThe movies were not accurate, because they used the "one taken, the other left" passages to be referring to "our Rapture"... but they do NOT refer to that.
[I saw the movies back then... "Thief in the Night" etc (70s)]
Actually the Church is first noted noted in Rev chapter 1 to begin with.....
Rev 1:4,6,20
Rev 1:6
and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:9, 10
And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
****Clear concise, sequentially unequivocal.......Case closed****
Yes. And as you have stated innumerable times the sequence is opposite to that of the Rapture.^
--Matthew 24:40,41
--Luke 17:34,35,36
[NOT "our Rapture" event, like those old movies had portrayed was the case
____________
What those verses actually speak of, is this:
--the one "taken" is taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day);
--the one "left" is left on the earth, to repopulate the earth (just as in Noah's day;
Comp. Dan2:35 with Gen9:1 along with these passages... where those two verses [Dan2 & Gen9] both say, "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth")
The gaping hole in that idea is that it means you must believe there is no one in heaven now.
No one has gone to heaven for the last 2000 years. The 12 Apostles are in limbo. It forces one to accept a belief in soul-sleep.
Those are martyrs.
Out of the gt.
Now remember earlier the martyrs were not allowed out from under the altar.
Now they are before the throne.
( indicating they are in glorified bodies....or...they would still be confined under the altar)