because that's the way you want to believe it or because that is what is actually written?
2 Thessalonians 2
- Thread starter OldSage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Which nation is referred to here, if you don't mind my asking?
Joel 1:Wake up, you drunkards, and weep;
and wail, all you wine-drinkers,
over the sweet wine,
for it is cut off from your mouth.
6 For a nation has invaded my land,
powerful and innumerable;
its teeth are lions’ teeth,
and it has the fangs of a lioness.
7 It has laid waste my vines,
and splintered my fig trees;
it has stripped off their bark and thrown it down;
their branches have turned white.
Sorry - had a memory mixup...
I was thinking about Dubai - which has been referred to as the New Babylon.
Happens to us all Gary.
Maybe Assyria but probably Babylon. I don't know when Joel was alive
Jeremiah 50:17
Israel is a hunted sheep driven away by lions. First the king of Assyria devoured it, and now at the end King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon has gnawed its bones.
I just spelled it out for you why that's not the case with the "definite article", go find anywhere in the passage where it speaks of FAITH, anywhere in the whole chapter. I will wait, but you will not be able to reply brother. Paul was telling the Thessalonians not to worry, they would not be here for God's WRath, and the Departure AND the Anti-Christ both show up before God's Wrath. To me it's not complicated, it's again people not being able to let go of old think. The Pharisees did the same thing, that's why Jesus had to get babes, We are dealing with END TIME THINGS that God decided not to reveal until the very end times (God told Daniel that) yet we are bringing our understandings of PRE God opening that vault and God told me 5 years or so ago that us already "KNOWING EVERYTHING" was hindering Him from teaching us what we needed to know. A lot of things I learned came after that encounter. I didn't just continue to rely on my 30 years of knowledge, I of course kept what I knew that I knew as correct, but things that were just ACCEPTED, like the 144,000 Super Preachers which is NOWHERE in the bible or those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 as being out of the 70th-week tribulation, when they can't be, etc., etc., I stopped just accepting when men had passed down and starting reading and asking Gid, Hey, its the End Times, SHOW ME NEW THINGS NEVER BEFORE REVEALED.
When I can't get anyone to understand the 1335 comes first, then the 1290, and then the 1260, and I know it is of God, Houston we have a problem. My blog explains why it's DEPARTING the earth pretty basic stuff. When you see anywhere in the chapter where FAITH is being spoken of getting back to me. You write a whole chapter about DEPARTING the Faith bit the only thing being spoken about is a GATHERING unto Christ. I mean, this should be is like shooting sitting ducks. When we are Raptured, only our Spirits leave.
God Bless. Try to incorporate Occam's Razor at times, sometimes simple logic stops us from wasting time on much more complex theories that are probably wrong anyway, thus I start with the simple logistics first.
The Rapture is Pre trib and that's not even debatable. So, the rest of the point is just us OFFTRACKING.
You miss it but get it right. Mr. Covolution (LOL)
The Holy Spirit is indeed NOT taken off of the earth, but He is the POWER that Restrains, but just as God made Moses hold up the Staff to win the battle, we the Church use the POWER of the Holy Spirit to restrain the Best from coming forth. I mean Occam's Razor should tell us this is true, the Last Beast was Rome, there will never be another east union, the Church is Raptured !! Thus, when the Church DEPARTS the Holy Spirit loses his VEHICLE to thwart the Beast. One might say, Ohh Yea? God could thwart the Beast any time He wanted to? Well, He could, but before the Church got on death He didn't do it for nigh 1000 straight years, thus we forget, it's a part of God's plan of punishment for 70 weeks against Israel, a design to make them repent.
The Remnant Church will be here fr the trib, but they will all be killed. The Holy Spirit never leaves,, the Two-witnesses are on earth right up until the 7th Trump, they die 75 days before the Beast dies.
The RESTRAINER is the Holy Spirit working in tandem with the Church thus once we leave, the Holy Spirit allows the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering.
JUST AN POINTED REFERENCE HERE.........
The Day of the Lord is THE DAY Godstrts taking his Kingdom (Earth) back from the vile Dragon/Satan, who we know stated in Luke 4 that he has the power of all of the worlds kingdoms, and does as he will with them.
How long will it last? Well of course GaryA is correct, why take back a kingdom and not rule right? So, Jesus will rule on this earth for 1000 years. Thus the Day of the Lord is the Day God's Wrath starts taking back the kingdom from Satan, it ends when Jesus and all of us leave this earth for the New Jerusalem.
That's why I say the DOTL lasts 1003 1/2 years. God turns on His wrath for 3.5 years, then Jesus rules for 1000 years. Both are the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord is THE DAY Godstrts taking his Kingdom (Earth) back from the vile Dragon/Satan, who we know stated in Luke 4 that he has the power of all of the worlds kingdoms, and does as he will with them.
How long will it last? Well of course GaryA is correct, why take back a kingdom and not rule right? So, Jesus will rule on this earth for 1000 years. Thus the Day of the Lord is the Day God's Wrath starts taking back the kingdom from Satan, it ends when Jesus and all of us leave this earth for the New Jerusalem.
That's why I say the DOTL lasts 1003 1/2 years. God turns on His wrath for 3.5 years, then Jesus rules for 1000 years. Both are the Day of the Lord.
What I think is very problematical for you and Ahwatukee is that the Day Of The Lord announced in Joel 2 verse 1 is provisional
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent
In 2 Thessalonians 2 alone, Jesus doesn't return until He's ready to end the great tribulation. There's no rapture until Jesus returns which would make a pre-trib rapture impossible.
Either the restrainer is taken out of the way or not. You're trying to say the restrainer is taken out of the way while simultaneously present and active. That isn't how this works. In order to avoid contradictions the restrainer probably isn't the Holy Spirit. The restrainer is someone or something else. There are some decent alternatives to investigate.
The text states it like this, though:
"7b... the [one] restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be], 8 AND THEN [kai tote]..."
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm
... which is worded is very similar language to that of:
"[Lam2] 3b... he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."
The words "... drawn back his right hand from before the enemy" is the LIFTING OF THE RESTRAINT on the enemy, thereby releasing the enemy onto the scene of things, i.e. letting 'er rip!--It is not the total vanishing of the "right hand" that previously was RESTRAINING the enemy, but the removal of the RESTRAINING ROLE / EFFECT.
So in the case of "the Holy Spirit," it is NOT that the Holy Spirit Himself completely vanishes off the scene, but that His ROLE in "RESTRAINING AT PRESENT" is lifted... Kind of in the same way that PRIOR TO His [/the HS] "coming" to permanently INDWELL believers/the Church which is His body (see Jesus' reference to this in John 7:39 and John 16:7
), in His role [now] as the Comforter / Advocate / Helper / Paraklétos (IN us), He still existed and was still omnipresent... His role simply differed prior to that point.So here, in this text (context), I believe another "role-change" is being referenced... taking place to pave way for the "man of sin" to be released onto the scene, a "SCENE-CHANGE" to come into play, so to speak, and the set-up for "the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" to be "believed" by certain ones (FOLLOWING this particular "change of scenes"
). If certain things were "spelled out" the way some insist, this would defeat the purpose God has for that future time-period when "HE SHALL SEND TO THEM" great delusion "IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI" (IN / DURING the TRIB yrs, FOLLOWING this "scene-change" ... when "the man of sin" will be existing and will DO ALL that he is slated TO DO within those 7 yrs, after the "RESTRAINING [AT PRESENT]" is lifted, see...)The text states it like this, though:
"7b... the [one] restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be], 8 AND THEN [kai tote]..."
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm
... which is worded is very similar language to that of:
"[Lam2] 3b... he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."
The words "... drawn back his right hand from before the enemy" is the LIFTING OF THE RESTRAINT on the enemy, thereby releasing the enemy onto the scene of things, i.e. letting 'er rip!--It is not the total vanishing of the "right hand" that previously was RESTRAINING the enemy, but the removal of the RESTRAINING ROLE / EFFECT.
So in the case of "the Holy Spirit," it is NOT that the Holy Spirit Himself completely vanishes off the scene, but that His ROLE in "RESTRAINING AT PRESENT" is lifted... Kind of in the same way that PRIOR TO His [/the HS] "coming" to permanently INDWELL believers/the Church which is His body (see Jesus' reference to this in John 7:39 and John 16:7
So here, in this text (context), I believe another "role-change" is being referenced... taking place to pave way for the "man of sin" to be released onto the scene, a "SCENE-CHANGE" to come into play, so to speak, and the set-up for "the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" to be "believed" by certain ones (FOLLOWING this particular "change of scenes"
As long as the Holy Spirit is not completely removed "out of the way" but rather just changes roles then I can accept that.
That's a good theory, but it doesn't say "The Holy Spirit will change roles and no longer restrain." So a lot of this just feels like speculation without any hard evidence. Like I said, I do think you have a good theory though.
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
He’s talking about the day of the lords return with fire to earth chapter 1 is where his thinking begins
“So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”
2 Thessalonians 1:4-5, 7-10
he’s comforting them and admonishing thier repentance and to get ready but telling them it’s not here yet you have time still . The people had been told some rumors and gossip that they missed his coming . So this is what he was comforting them about
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV
he’s comforting them d also encouraging and admonishing their repentance and obedience because the day is coming though it is not here yet
he then also adds to the understanding of the end time beast
In my honest opinion, yeah it's rocket science. The verses use an interrogative pronoun and a masculine pronoun to describe the same object. It would be clearer if proper nouns were used, but I guess that's just part of the mystery.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
Thank you for saying so.
So … How does the scripture above make me wrong? And wrong about what?
I have always taught that 'The Day of the Lord' will be an unprecedented time of God's future wrath, the tribulation period, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. So, we are in agreement that the Day of the Lord will come from the Almighty, which includes Christ himself. For in Revelation 6:17 is says "The great day of wrath of them has come and who is able to stand?"
I would also draw your attention from v.6 in Isaiah down to v.9-10
"Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.
Compare what I have boldened Matthew 24:29
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." - Matthew 24:29
The above is Isaiah continuing on with the destruction that v.6 is referring to, which is more details regarding God's wrath.
You have to keep in mind that, the phrase "the Day of the Lord" also referred to as "the Hour of Trial" is neither a day nor and hour in length, but covers the entire period of God's wrath. Remember the other phrase that is used to describe the time of God's wrath "which will come on them like a woman having birth pains." Birth pains start off far mildly and far apart and get closer together with the pain becoming more and more intense as the woman gets closer to giving birth. This is also a figurative picture of God's wrath.
Otherwise, I don't know what your contention is, because you didn't directly make it known.
You didn't understand what I wrote. I told you and proved it to you without a doubt, that you cannot use the word 'apostasia' translated as 'departure' to mean depart up into the air. If you use 'departure' it has to retain the original meaning of the Greek 'apostasia.' If the Holy Spirit was referring to believers departing up into the air, He would have used 'harpazo' just as He did when he revealed the church being 'caught up.'
Let's focus on one subject and stop cramming every issue together. All that does is defuse the truth.
So, please answer me regarding the word 'apostasia' in regards to trying to make it mean to depart up into the air. Just concentrate on that one and then will go to the next issue. By the way, this is a false teaching that has been out there for some time which I have contended with many time before this. Below is the meaning of the word 'apostasia.'
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Below is the only other instance where the word 'apostasia' is used:
"Now they have been informed about you, that you teach all Jews among the Gentiles apostasy from Moses, telling them not to circumcise the children nor to walk in the customs."
If you can't agree with the meaning of this word, then there is no sense in going any further because you would just be ignoring the facts.
I submit for your consideration that this "restrainer" isn't a Person/Being at all but the "circumstance" around the man of lawlessness appearing, that's preventing the coming of the Messiah.
Paul says, "**and now you know** what restrains..." as he just told the reader in the previous verses what must happen before Messiah appears. Paul explained what was preventing the Messiah's return: the falling away and appearance of "the man of lawlessness."
...And then he - that man - will remain present until he - that man - is taken out of the way by the brightness of Messiah's appearance and the breath of His mouth.
Good day, Yahshua!
The problem with the Restrainer being a 'circumstance' is that in v.7 the Restrainer is referred to as a "He." The context makes it clear that the Restrainer is a person/entity. And that once this Restrainer is taken out of the way, then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. It is the One who is holding back the man of lawlessness from being revealed who is referred to as "He."