2 Thessalonians 2

[Yahshua]

Good day, Yahshua!

The problem with the Restrainer being a 'circumstance' is that in v.7 the Restrainer is referred to as a "He." The context makes it clear that the Restrainer is a person/entity. And that once this Restrainer is taken out of the way, then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. It is the One who is holding back the man of lawlessness from being revealed who is referred to as "He."

Good day, Sir Ahwatukee

...but here, let's check out the passage...

2 Thess 2:1-6
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


If we take only the key phrases, it says:

...be not soon shaken in mind...that the day of Christ is at hand...for that day shall not come, except...first...now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

From Paul's perspective, he just explained what's withholding, didn't he?

 

[OldSage]

In my honest opinion, yeah it's rocket science. The verses use an interrogative pronoun and a masculine pronoun to describe the same object. It would be clearer if proper nouns were used, but I guess that's just part of the mystery.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Ok. Why not:

what = the priesthood
he = the High Priest

 

[OldSage]

Thank you for saying so.

So … How does the scripture above make me wrong? And wrong about what?

I have always taught that 'The Day of the Lord' will be an unprecedented time of God's future wrath, the tribulation period, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. So, we are in agreement that the Day of the Lord will come from the Almighty, which includes Christ himself. For in Revelation 6:17 is says "The great day of wrath of them has come and who is able to stand?"

I would also draw your attention from v.6 in Isaiah down to v.9-10

"Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.

Compare what I have boldened Matthew 24:29

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." - Matthew 24:29

The above is Isaiah continuing on with the destruction that v.6 is referring to, which is more details regarding God's wrath.

You have to keep in mind that, the phrase "the Day of the Lord" also referred to as "the Hour of Trial" is neither a day nor and hour in length, but covers the entire period of God's wrath. Remember the other phrase that is used to describe the time of God's wrath "which will come on them like a woman having birth pains." Birth pains start off far mildly and far apart and get closer together with the pain becoming more and more intense as the woman gets closer to giving birth. This is also a figurative picture of God's wrath.

Otherwise, I don't know what your contention is, because you didn't directly make it known.

Hi Sir Ahwatukee,

The Day of the Lord Isaiah is describing is the Medes smashing up Babylon.

Isaiah:13:1The burden of Babylon....................17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

As prophesied in Jeremiah 25:

12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations............29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the Lord of hosts.30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The Lord shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord.

It is what it is. There are several Days of The Lord.
Babylon falling to Medo-Persia overnight in 538BC being one of them.

 

[OldSage]

Thank you for saying so.

So … How does the scripture above make me wrong? And wrong about what?

I have always taught that 'The Day of the Lord' will be an unprecedented time of God's future wrath, the tribulation period, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. So, we are in agreement that the Day of the Lord will come from the Almighty, which includes Christ himself. For in Revelation 6:17 is says "The great day of wrath of them has come and who is able to stand?"

I would also draw your attention from v.6 in Isaiah down to v.9-10

"Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.

Compare what I have boldened Matthew 24:29

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." - Matthew 24:29

The above is Isaiah continuing on with the destruction that v.6 is referring to, which is more details regarding God's wrath.

You have to keep in mind that, the phrase "the Day of the Lord" also referred to as "the Hour of Trial" is neither a day nor and hour in length, but covers the entire period of God's wrath. Remember the other phrase that is used to describe the time of God's wrath "which will come on them like a woman having birth pains." Birth pains start off far mildly and far apart and get closer together with the pain becoming more and more intense as the woman gets closer to giving birth. This is also a figurative picture of God's wrath.

Otherwise, I don't know what your contention is, because you didn't directly make it known.

Or go to Zephaniah.
He is prophesying the Babylonian exile. The Day of the Lord here pertains to the 7th Century BC!
To suggest anything else is, frankly, deranged. You cannot simply put things in nice neat eschatological boxes as suits you. If The Day Of The Lord doesn't fit your eschatology maybe it's time to review your eschatology!!
And take note of the word 'anger' here as this is what A Day of The Lord is about - God's Judgment

Zephaniah 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

 

[Rondonmon]

You didn't understand what I wrote. I told you and proved it to you without a doubt, that you cannot use the word 'apostasia' translated as 'departure' to mean depart up into the air. If you use 'departure' it has to retain the original meaning of the Greek 'apostasia.' If the Holy Spirit was referring to believers departing up into the air, He would have used 'harpazo' just as He did when he revealed the church being 'caught up.'

Let's focus on one subject and stop cramming every issue together. All that does is defuse the truth.

So, please answer me regarding the word 'apostasia' in regards to trying to make it mean to depart up into the air. Just concentrate on that one and then will go to the next issue. By the way, this is a false teaching that has been out there for some time which I have contended with many time before this. Below is the meaning of the word 'apostasia.'

Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Below is the only other instance where the word 'apostasia' is used:

"Now they have been informed about you, that you teach all Jews among the Gentiles apostasy from Moses, telling them not to circumcise the children nor to walk in the customs."


If you can't agree with the meaning of this word, then there is no sense in going any further because you would just be ignoring the facts.

Read the blog, it explains why you are in error that same ole copy and paste doesn't give me anything new brother. This is why Jesus used babes, we KNOW TOO MUCH, but we don't use our own common sense at times. The Chapter explains itself, nowhere is it speaking of FAITH, but it does use an ARTICLE which in the Greek was not needed, thus Paul was pointing unto something in particular via using the article, and we see that in verse one, the Gathering together of the Church.

This is what you have to believe in order to believe Paul is speaking about a DEPARTING from the Faith. That Paul is saying, DON'T FEAR the Wrath of God it can't come until so and so, and so (WHICH NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOT THE HOUR) happens, thus you can't be in it nr do you ever have to fear it. Well, since Jesus' return is imminent, Paul had no idea when Jesus was returning, thus he told them a lie, and just told them to not fear first the Departing of the Faith must come..........WELL, that could have come over a 65 year period for all Paul would have known, during the Thessalonians and his lifetime. We know not the day nor hour, so Paul's assurance was an outright lie, r Paul was speaking about the Church DEPARTING FIRST, thus they don't have to fear.

So, let's say I tell you Hey man, don't worry about these New York City streets and the thugs that will take over the streets one day. I have seen in a vision that after we depart [for Florida]. But I only say DEPART, because we have already spoken about this before, and in the very first paragraph I am speaking about Departing for Florida, why would you or anyone else who read that letter later on not understand the conversation was about DEPARTING Florida? Why does it become REVOLT? Because someone taught it that way for 100s of years, even though it makes no sense as pertaining to the actual text. So, we keep saying the sea thing over and over. I don't do that, I don't follow Men's Traditions. If it doesn't fit, I ain't following the logic down a cul de sac.

 

[Rondonmon]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 alone, Jesus doesn't return until He's ready to end the great tribulation. There's no rapture until Jesus returns which would make a pre-trib rapture impossible.



Either the restrainer is taken out of the way or not. You're trying to say the restrainer is taken out of the way while simultaneously present and active. That isn't how this works. In order to avoid contradictions the restrainer probably isn't the Holy Spirit. The restrainer is someone or something else. There are some decent alternatives to investigate.

No, people often overlook the forest because of the trees. That is what you did here brother.

Let's do this another way, I think you will see it then.

If I BLOCK YOU PATH on Interstate 65 via a huge boulder, and I mandate it not be moved (God can do these things in the spirit that I am describing in the natural realm with a natural boulder and Interstate). Then for let's say 25 years it stays in place, no one is allowed to travel south to Mobile Alabama. But then after 25 years, I order the Boulder which RESTRAINS the traffic to Mobile removed or TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, did I have to leave for that to happen? Of course not, that which is taken out of the way is the Church, and thus the Boulder is akin to the Church, not the power that placed it in the way (God/Holy Spirit).

The Church is taken out of the way, the Church stops the Beast from coming forth, via the power of the Holy Spirit which Jesus gave us, he said you will have power over all Demons, Jesus also said the gates of hell will not prevail against my Church. The Holy Spirit is not removed, the Church is removed, and the Holy Spirit worked through the Church, but that doesn't mean He leaves the earth, it means the Church that weaponized the Holy Spirit leaves the earth.

The retainer is The Church using the HOLY SPIRIT to RESTAIN the Beast. Does the power come from God or the Church ? God, of course, but like Moses, the staff being raised won the battle, but the power was from God.

So, the POWER can only be God, but the vehicle He works through is the Church who gets Raptured Pre Trib.

EVERYTHING COMES UP............PRE TRIB.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It's not rocket science.
What holds back lawlessness?
Couldn't possibly be .....

the Law?

If the contest only ever mentioned "lawlessness" (itself) as what is being "restrained," then you'd have a case, I'd say.

But the context earlier seemingly calls the one being restrained, as "the MAN OF sin [/lawlessness]... the SON OF perdition" [v.3c] (seemingly an individual/person, just as Judas Iscariot was an individual/person... who was also called "the SON OF perdition"--almost like this is intentionally a major clue to the "individual-person" kind of identity of the item being "restrained"... UNTIL... [and the text also mentions "[that he might be] revealed IN HIS TIME"])

v.3c - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-3.htm


What say you?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If the contest

EDIT to correct TYPO: "context"

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day, Sir Ahwatukee

...but here, let's check out the passage...

2 Thess 2:1-6
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


If we take only the key phrases, it says:

...be not soon shaken in mind...that the day of Christ is at hand...for that day shall not come, except...first...now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

From Paul's perspective, he just explained what's withholding, didn't he?

Good day, Yahshua

Here is both verse 6 & 7 together in the literal:

"And now you know [that] which is restraining for his being revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is working already; there is only [the one] at present restraining it, until [he] might be gone out of the midst."

So, the Restrainer is referred to first as [that] which is restraining in verse 6, then in verse 7 is referred to as [the one] and then finally as [He]. Therefore, it is made plain to us in the scripture that the identity of the Restrainer as referring to a being/person. [The One] and [He] supersedes the word [that] or in your translation [what] in v.6. This type of identification is done in other scriptures as well. For example at the 5th Trumpet:

"And the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw [a star] having fallen out of heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given to [it]. 2And [he] opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."

So, in the example above the one opening the Abyss is revealed as being [a star] and then is referred to as [it] and then finally as [he] in verse 2. Therefore when we use our reasoning, we know that a literal star cannot given a key nor unlock the Abyss. Then the fact that the star is referred to as [he] tells us that the [the star] is referring to an angel.

There are other examples of this, but I think that you get my point. The final title that is attributed to the Restrainer is as a [He] demonstrating that he is not an inanimate object, or a circumstance, but is a person/being who is restraining the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time.

I hope that this makes sense to you.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi Sir Ahwatukee,

The Day of the Lord Isaiah is describing is the Medes smashing up Babylon.


First of all, there is nothing in the scripture that would tie in "the Medes smashing up Babylon." And it does not fit the criteria of destroying the inhabitants of the earth. And second, this is why I drew your attention to the v.9 & 10 showing that the day of the Lord as being a future event by comparing the prophecy of the darkening of the sun and moon with Matthew 24:29. It puts 'The Day of the Lord' which Isaiah is referring to as being future. Below are the scriptures in question:

====================================
Wail, for the Day of the LORD is near;

it will come as destruction from the Almighty.

7Therefore all hands will fall limp,

and every man’s heart will melt.

8Terror, pain, and anguish will seize them;

they will writhe like a woman in labor.

They will look at one another,

their faces aflame.

9Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—

cruel, with fury and burning anger—

to make the earth a desolation

and to destroy the sinners within it.

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations

will not give their light.

The rising sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light.

=======================================

Compare with Matthew 24:29 where the darkening of the sun and moon are the sign of the Lord's immediate return, which hasn't happened yet.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken

=======================================

Both Isaiah and Matthew are speaking about the same event, which is the 'The Day of the Lord' which is yet future and which the majority of the book of Revelation is giving in detail. Zephaniah, as well as other prophets, prophesy regarding 'The Day of the Lord.'

The great Day of the LORD is near—near and coming quickly.

Listen, the Day of the LORD!

Then the cry of the mighty will be bitter.

15That day will be a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress,

a day of destruction and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom,

a day of clouds and blackness, 16a day of horn blast and battle cry

against the fortified cities, and against the high corner towers.

17I will bring such distress on mankind that they will walk like the blind,

because they have sinned against the LORD.

Their blood will be poured out like dust and their flesh like dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them on the Day of the LORD’s wrath.

The whole earth will be consumed by the fire of His jealousy.”

For indeed, He will make a sudden end of all who dwell on the earth.

==================================================================

The Day of the Lord is a future event which will begin after the church has been gathered.

The reference to bringing distress on mankind and making a sudden end of all who dwell upon the earth, will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring.

A study of everywhere that 'The Day of the Lord' is prophesied would be helpful in understanding this as a future event leading up to the end of the age.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You simply are not understanding what a hidden thing is CN.
Every parable Jesus spoke is a misterion, as he was hiding things from Israel.
I am not aware of Paul introducing mysteries, his purpose was to explain them.

amen he was a revelator of the law and prophets and what they had foretold was coming with Christ

“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s doctrine is making the things hidden in the law and prophets relevant to us because he’s giving revelation of those prior established words.

his purpose was mainly to unite jew and gentile people in Christ and show us the church the revelation of Gods one chosen people

“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:2-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Jesus said that but it was hidden like your saying it was cloaked Paul is opening it up because the people have now received the spirit and can grasp it

Jesus had said vaguely the two people would become one people with only the one shepherd , but Paul says “ gentile and jew are made one people “ making it relevant d understood and not cloaked in a parable

Paul’s mystery is bedded on the prophets and cloaked in the gospel

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:16‬ ‭

the epistles offer more revealed details that make it applicable to even the most unlearned of scripture by just learning the revealed doctrines that originate in the law and prophets promises of Jesus , are Manifest by him in the gospel , and revealed by the prophets and apostles by the spirit in scripture

 

[Runningman]

No, people often overlook the forest because of the trees. That is what you did here brother.

Let's do this another way, I think you will see it then.

If I BLOCK YOU PATH on Interstate 65 via a huge boulder, and I mandate it not be moved (God can do these things in the spirit that I am describing in the natural realm with a natural boulder and Interstate). Then for let's say 25 years it stays in place, no one is allowed to travel south to Mobile Alabama. But then after 25 years, I order the Boulder which RESTRAINS the traffic to Mobile removed or TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, did I have to leave for that to happen? Of course not, that which is taken out of the way is the Church, and thus the Boulder is akin to the Church, not the power that placed it in the way (God/Holy Spirit).

The Church is taken out of the way, the Church stops the Beast from coming forth, via the power of the Holy Spirit which Jesus gave us, he said you will have power over all Demons, Jesus also said the gates of hell will not prevail against my Church. The Holy Spirit is not removed, the Church is removed, and the Holy Spirit worked through the Church, but that doesn't mean He leaves the earth, it means the Church that weaponized the Holy Spirit leaves the earth.

The retainer is The Church using the HOLY SPIRIT to RESTAIN the Beast. Does the power come from God or the Church ? God, of course, but like Moses, the staff being raised won the battle, but the power was from God.

So, the POWER can only be God, but the vehicle He works through is the Church who gets Raptured Pre Trib.

EVERYTHING COMES UP............PRE TRIB.

Again, a pre-trib rapture doesn't fit the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 because there's no rapture until Jesus returns. We'll get our rapture immediately after the tribulation. You don't need to do anything except trust God on this one.

 

[TMS]

As for the Big Lie, here are the notes (my thoughts) that I've put together a time ago (I'm not God, so I may be wrong):

This is a remarkable set of texts where the context is disobedience and wickedness. The "big lie" that God will cause us to believe is the one where we will believe that we do not have to obey to be saved. And today's church seems to clearly be under this delusion. So, God is about to prove Himself by waking us all up in what I believe could be an instant. In the blink of an eye, our eyes and ears will be opened and the church will pull together as one body, and this will prove to the world that our God is Lord and none other. Unity has not yet taken place, but we are primed and ready for it. For we must come together very soon as God is about to Harvest this country.

The lie that God will get the world to believe, is the same lie that Satan told Adam and Eve, which is that they can disobey, and that it won’t be a problem with God. - This is the lie that we have always believed, for it is the very lie that the Devil placed upon mankind, thus it is the same lie that most "christians" live under today, that is until Christ places His Holy Hands upon our Hearts so that we can think straight.

be careful about the unity you talk about because the devil will come first. As an angel of light to unite the world.
We are to be separated from the world, a peculiar people, in the world but not of it. The devil will sugar coat what he is trying to do.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

As an angel of light to unite the world.

Thanks. I wasn't talking about the world, though. Again, thanks.

 

[OldSage]

If the contest only ever mentioned "lawlessness" (itself) as what is being "restrained," then you'd have a case, I'd say.

But the context earlier seemingly calls the one being restrained, as "the MAN OF sin [/lawlessness]... the SON OF perdition" [v.3c] (seemingly an individual/person, just as Judas Iscariot was an individual/person... who was also called "the SON OF perdition"--almost like this is intentionally a major clue to the "individual-person" kind of identity of the item being "restrained"... UNTIL... [and the text also mentions "[that he might be] revealed IN HIS TIME"])

v.3c - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-3.htm


What say you?

He is being hindered, held back.

Smith wanted to go up to the bar, but he was hindered by his speech impediment.
General Phillips wanted to stage a military coup and take over the government, but he was
obstructed by the clique of West Point Generals.

 

[OldSage]

There are so many dead ends that eschatologists go down.
And it all stems from inaccurate premises which then create absurd
dogmas and perennial conflict - see post-trib versus pre-trib.

False premise No 1

(The) great tribulation = some 7 year future period of suffering for the Jews

Anti-semitic garbage.

(the) Great Suffering is that endured by the Holy People (Israel of the flesh) for the last 2000
years. God works in front of our eyes for 2000 years, but the crackpot 'church' decides to concoct nonsense fables in her seminaries. These are then spewed endlessly, by handsomely rewarded teachers and preachers, perpetuated and swilled down by the drunken followers.
These things are very bad.

 

[OldSage]

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-3‬ ‭

He’s talking about the day of the lords return with fire to earth chapter 1 is where his thinking begins

“So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:4-5, 7-10‬ ‭

he’s comforting them and admonishing thier repentance and to get ready but telling them it’s not here yet you have time still . The people had been told some rumors and gossip that they missed his coming . So this is what he was comforting them about

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s comforting them d also encouraging and admonishing their repentance and obedience because the day is coming though it is not here yet

he then also adds to the understanding of the end time beast

Hi PH,

There is a language of scripture, and it is not for us to make the rules or question it,
(not that I am accusing you of that, I am making a general address also).

So when Paul talks of the Day of Vengeance, the Day of the Lord, as a day of flaming fire,
how do we understand this?

Does Jesus stand in the clouds with a flame-thrower?
Does he trigger some cosmic event like a comet that burns vast swathes of earth?
Does he supernaturally cause an atomic explosion of some sort?

Or does the flaming fire have a metaphorical meaning?

I understand flaming fire as a metaphor that we find throughout scripture and it refers to the burning up worthless things.

John 5:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So there John gives a description, used also by Paul (e.g. Romans 11) and Jesus (e.g. John 15:1-2, Luke 12:49)
where the burning of wood on a fire is a metaphor for the destruction of apostate Israel. It is a common thread throughout Jesus' life and in the epistles; it actually is God's character.

Deuteronomy 4:23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

He burns apostates.
Dead wood is chucked on the bonfire.

Not literally of course, but metaphorically.

 

[Ogom]

In fairness to TDW s/he is not as absurd or downright obnoxious as some of the posters.
S/he is polite and seems to be trying to substantiate her points, which is why I
tried to understand her.

i hope i did not make them feel too bad. it was just what came to me while reading through posts here and their's also. it ssemed like too difficult and hard to read much of their posts and very exact um, ways you would have to think i guess also... very, very exact. but i guess it is probably pretty inportant to them so i hope they will not feel too bad that that is what i 'saw', got from it.
sometimes people probably speak from/through Spirit telling them something, you know? and recieve things from Spirit to say probably. so i do not take back my thought i guess because it does seem correct when i thought about it more again later on some, an impression (at least in part) i guess of how things seemed to be as i was reading. but i hope they will not feel too bad from what i said, or anything i say, just take as constructive, if any. i think that many different things can help many different kinds of people and they seem to be really invested in this you know? so probably very important to them.

 

[iamsoandso]

Hi PH,

There is a language of scripture, and it is not for us to make the rules or question it,
(not that I am accusing you of that, I am making a general address also).

So when Paul talks of the Day of Vengeance, the Day of the Lord, as a day of flaming fire,
how do we understand this?

Does Jesus stand in the clouds with a flame-thrower?
Does he trigger some cosmic event like a comet that burns vast swathes of earth?
Does he supernaturally cause an atomic explosion of some sort?

Or does the flaming fire have a metaphorical meaning?

I understand flaming fire as a metaphor that we find throughout scripture and it refers to the burning up worthless things.

John 5:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So there John gives a description, used also by Paul (e.g. Romans 11) and Jesus (e.g. John 15:1-2, Luke 12:49)
where the burning of wood on a fire is a metaphor for the destruction of apostate Israel. It is a common thread throughout Jesus' life and in the epistles; it actually is God's character.

Deuteronomy 4:23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

He burns apostates.
Dead wood is chucked on the bonfire.

Not literally of course, but metaphorically.

In context of 2Thess. 2 and the man of sin/lawlessness ect. seeing it as metaphorical and not literal would make no sense.

In Revelation 13:15 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-15.htm there are two groups inferred. One are those who do worship the image and the other does not worship the image. The group who do worship the image are not physically killed by the beast but being deceived they are spiritually dead. The other group who do not worship the image are not deceived and are not spiritually dead and the beast literally kills them because slaying them spiritually didn't work.

In Revelation 19:21 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/19-21.htm those who did/do worship the image,receive it's mark ect(see verse 20). are spiritually dead the same as in Rev.13:15(same group of those deceived) and they are killed at the Lords coming which again rules out a metaphorical type death and leaves only a literal death being spoken of. That is if you see these verses connected with 2 Thessalonians 2 in regards.

 

[OldSage]

In context of 2Thess. 2 and the man of sin/lawlessness ect. seeing it as metaphorical and not literal would make no sense.

In Revelation 13:15 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-15.htm there are two groups inferred. One are those who do worship the image and the other does not worship the image. The group who do worship the image are not physically killed by the beast but being deceived they are spiritually dead. The other group who do not worship the image are not deceived and are not spiritually dead and the beast literally kills them because slaying them spiritually didn't work.

In Revelation 19:21 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/19-21.htm those who did/do worship the image,receive it's mark ect(see verse 20). are spiritually dead the same as in Rev.13:15(same group of those deceived) and they are killed at the Lords coming which again rules out a metaphorical type death and leaves only a literal death being spoken of. That is if you see these verses connected with 2 Thessalonians 2 in regards.

It makes total sense.
The Lord destroys the man of sin which is exactly what I've just been talking about.
What I said was that it is metaphorical; God did not literally burn 3 million Israelites on a giant pyre.