The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

vassal said:

You speak as if God failed the first time and had to correct Himself later. That is not what Jesus taught.

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When Israel failed to enter the Land and possess their inheritance, was that God's failure? No, He desire was for them to in and take what was theirs. However, the scripture says: …18 And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter

vassal said:

Jesus said plainly, “Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished”

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The moral commands do continue because those have always been God's will for humanity. In fact, such truths were already present in man and were intuitively understood from the day God first made us (Romans 2:14). Thus, even before anyone had actually been murdered, God was able to reason with Cain about it. That being said, many of the PRACTICES God gave to encourage Israel to approach and worship Him did not continue. For instance, the Laws concerning the design of the Temple and the priesthood, and the system by which the Jews approached and worshiped God had became a hollow charade because the people's heart was not in it (Isaiah 1:13-15) This is why, I believe, God eventually put an end to the Temple, the sacrifices and the priesthood

vassal said:

(Matthew 5:17–18 ASV). Heaven and earth are still here. So the Law is not destroyed.
Fulfill does not mean abolish. It means to bring to fullness, to complete its purpose. A seed fulfills its purpose when it grows into a tree, but the life inside it is the same. Jesus did not say the commandments were obsolete. He warned that whoever breaks the least commandment and teaches men so “shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19).

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God wants of us what He has always wanted - that we should be like Him (made in His image) and that, because of this, we might fellowship with Him. You make some good observations here such as when you say Fulfill does not mean abolish. It means to bring to fullness, to complete its purpose. This is why following the letter of the Law is inadequate and insufficient. Under the terms of the New Covenant, MESSIAH, who is the living image and exact representation of the Father, is the image, and the template He wants to shape us into.

vassal said:

You quote Hebrews. But even there, God says what the New Covenant is. It is not the removal of His law. It is this: “I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them” (Hebrews 8:10 ASV, quoting Jeremiah 31:33). The law is not erased. It is written deeper.

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I agree with you on this. Under the New Covenant, the essence of the Law is meant to be inscribed on our inner being.
…3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)

vassal said:

The destruction of the Temple in AD 70 was judgment, just as Jesus foretold (Luke 19:43–44; 21:6). It proved His authority. But it did not mean God changed His moral standard.

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I do not believe God gave up His moral standards. The New Covenant gave us a way to fulfill the moral commands through the indwelling Holy Spirit

vassal said:

Jesus said, “If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). He did not say they would soon disappear. The priesthood changed because Messiah is our High Priest forever “after the order of Melchizedek” (Psalm 110:4). That was written long before the Temple fell. This was always God’s plan, not an emergency adjustment.

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Hebrews 8:13 tells us: By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one OBSOLETE and what is obsolete and outdated will
SOON DISAPPEAR.
Our differences here are with the author of the Book of Hebrews who said making a NEW Covenant with us automatically makes the prior covenant OBSOLETE. This was not about God's moral imperatives but about how we can approach and relate to God. When he says the Old would "soon disappear" I think he was referring to a specific event which was the destruction of the Temple. With no Temple there would be no more sacrifices. Without that Mosaic Judaism ceased, being replaced by the counterfeit model of Rabbinic Judaeism

TruthDefender said:

Keeping the Sabbath is not what we do! We are no longer to keep it. The first day of the week (Sunday) is the Lord’s Day.

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Historically, you are absolutely correct. Neither Jesus nor His apostles commanded New Covenant believers to keep Shabbat exactly as the Jews had. The Jewish Shabbat commemorated God's completion of the first creation and celebrated Israel's deliverance from slavery. However, since Christ rose from the dead on Sunday, which Christians did not call by the pagan name "Day of the Sun" but rather The Lord's Day in honor of Christ's resurrection and ascension to Heaven thereby making possible the RE-CREATION and RESTORATION of the cosmos.

Alluding to Christ after His resurrection and ascension, the word tells us that "whom heaven must receive UNTIL the period of restoration of all things, about which God spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from ancient times"
(Acts 3:21)

vassal said:

Jesus also said, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13). If the whole plan was finished for every person at the cross, why speak of enduring to the end?

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The atonement that Jesus performed is the sole reason for our salvation, and always will be.

Your perseverance is simply keeping that faith from the beginning (the alpha) to the end (the omega).

Through, thick and thin, we hold to that trust in Jesus.

It's not your effort plus Jesus equals salvation as that is heresy.

vassal said:

He said endure.

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We endure in our faith in Jesus our savior.

Throw your crown at the feet of Jesus because the glory belong to Him alone.

Never boast in anything you have ever done.

Inquisitor said:

We endure in our faith in Jesus our savior.

Throw your crown at the feet of Jesus because the glory belong to Him alone.

Never boast in anything you have ever done.

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How is enduring in Christ boasting??

Jesus is literally the one strengthening and holding up the believer who endures in Him.

It's not a position of pride like you say. It's humble and obedient to Jesus.


🕊

Dino246 said:

You claim there are two distinct "laws" but you haven't provided any evidence that Jesus distinguishes them. Actually, the whole record of His statements establishes that when He spoke of "the law" He included both the ten commandments and the other 600-odd ordinances.

In other words, your point is unsupported by Scripture.

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The very next post, I give a biblical reason why there are 2 laws. With bible verses. Read it in post 4023.

Inquisitor said:

I would answer that paragraph differently.

On the cross, He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30 in Gospel of John). What was finished? The sacrifice. The Lamb had been offered. Just as in the sanctuary, the victim was slain once. There is no repeated sacrifice. In that sense, the atoning offering was complete. But does Scripture show that everything in the plan of salvation was completed at that moment? YES.

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The blood was shed..... type was the lamb in the outer court. That was done and finished..

But what about all the other aspects of the type.? ... the preast took the blood and sprinkled it in the sanctuary.
Then the day of atonement came and the sins needed to be cleansed from the sanctuary.

it is clear that Jesus is our high priest in heaven. Read Heb 9
The Judgement is still happening today.
The blood of Jesus is still being offered to make us clean.

How do you say the whole plan of salvation from sin was completed at the cross?

We have a priest in heaven attending to the work of mediation. Atonement is not complete until we are Judged as saved.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Make reconciliation..... as the high priest
Not as the lamb..

The blood of Christ is essential but that is not the end of His work of salvation

Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Intercession is part of our salvation.

TMS said:

Paul clearly said
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

These laws were nailed to the cross and blotted out.
But Paul also clearly states....
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

It is clearly 2 different laws

One is blotted out the other is established in our hearts.

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No, it is not "clearly" two different laws. It is one law.

Paul's statement in Romans 3:31 does not say that the law continues to apply to Christians, despite what all the legalists claim. Instead, what he says is that believers are justified and made righteous by faith apart from law.

v. 21- But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Note that it does not say "to those who obey the law".

v. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law (that's where your entire position breaks down, by the way).

Finally, in v. 31 he says, "Do we, then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all. Rather, we uphold the law.

While I will admit it is complex language, it is not incomprehensible. Paul is saying that the Law is from God, and that it has a purpose. He is not, however, saying that we are justified or made righteous by obeying the law.

Similarly, in chapter 7, Paul is defending the law's purpose: to show what sin is and to condemn it.

There aren't two laws; there is one.

The law is clearly promoted in many places. Jesus said to keep it. Paul said it is Holy and Good, James said to keep it and Reverlation tells us the remnant will be keeping the law.

Mat 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Rom 7:12-14
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Jas 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

There are many more verses promoting the obedience to the law.

Dino246 said:

No, it is not "clearly" two different laws. It is one law.

Paul's statement in Romans 3:31 does not say that the law continues to apply to Christians, despite what all the legalists claim. Instead, what he says is that believers are justified and made righteous by faith apart from law.

v. 21- But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Note that it does not say "to those who obey the law".

v. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law (that's where your entire position breaks down, by the way).

Finally, in v. 31 he says, "Do we, then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all. Rather, we uphold the law.

While I will admit it is complex language, it is not incomprehensible. Paul is saying that the Law is from God, and that it has a purpose. He is not, however, saying that we are justified or made righteous by obeying the law.

Similarly, in chapter 7, Paul is defending the law's purpose: to show what sin is and to condemn it.

There aren't two laws; there is one.

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If there is ONE LAW as you say why does the bible promote it in many places.

In some places we are told that the Law is dead and made dissolute, so it is clear that there are 2 laws.

No law = no sin

Rom 4:15 ...for where no law is, there is no transgression. Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

There must be a law today that we are guilty of transgressing.
We are by faith freed from the guilt by Jesus our saviour but there must be a law. No law = no sin = no need for Jesus.

When people want to believe a lie they will find ways to do so. People will believe lies so they can justify their mind set.

The word is clear God (Jesus) gave us the law with power and might, and never said to stop keeping that same moral law.

Don't say it is only for the Jews ...

We are all one in Christ . We are grafted into the family of Christ.. we are all children of God through Christ.

We all become Jews, Israelites in Christ.

TMS said:

The law is clearly promoted in many places. Jesus said to keep it. Paul said it is Holy and Good, James said to keep it and Reverlation tells us the remnant will be keeping the law.

Mat 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Rom 7:12-14
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Jas 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

There are many more verses promoting the obedience to the law.


If there is ONE LAW as you say why does the bible promote it in many places.

In some places we are told that the Law is dead and made dissolute, so it is clear that there are 2 laws.

No law = no sin

Rom 4:15 ...for where no law is, there is no transgression. Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

There must be a law today that we are guilty of transgressing.
We are by faith freed from the guilt by Jesus our saviour but there must be a law. No law = no sin = no need for Jesus.

When people want to believe a lie they will find ways to do so. People will believe lies so they can justify their mind set.

The word is clear God (Jesus) gave us the law with power and might, and never said to stop keeping that same moral law.

Don't say it is only for the Jews ...

We are all one in Christ . We are grafted into the family of Christ.. we are all children of God through Christ.

We all become Jews, Israelites in Christ.

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You would do well to learn the fallacies and stop employing them. You might then make a coherent argument. As it is, you are cherry-picking, using false equivocation, assuming the consequent, and more. You're also misrepresenting Scripture in the process.

What version do you use, anyway? I've never seen the word "dissolute" in any translation that I use.

TMS said:

The law is clearly promoted in many places. Jesus said to keep it. Paul said it is Holy and Good, James said to keep it and Reverlation tells us the remnant will be keeping the law.

Mat 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Rom 7:12-14
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Jas 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

There are many more verses promoting the obedience to the law.


If there is ONE LAW as you say why does the bible promote it in many places.

In some places we are told that the Law is dead and made dissolute, so it is clear that there are 2 laws.

No law = no sin

Rom 4:15 ...for where no law is, there is no transgression. Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

There must be a law today that we are guilty of transgressing.
We are by faith freed from the guilt by Jesus our saviour but there must be a law. No law = no sin = no need for Jesus.

When people want to believe a lie they will find ways to do so. People will believe lies so they can justify their mind set.

The word is clear God (Jesus) gave us the law with power and might, and never said to stop keeping that same moral law.

Don't say it is only for the Jews ...

We are all one in Christ . We are grafted into the family of Christ.. we are all children of God through Christ.

We all become Jews, Israelites in Christ.

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The Catholics nearly two millennia before your church separated the law into two parts.

You follow the tradition of the Catholics and you did not invent the two part law\ idea.

The law was given to Israel only and at Mt Sinai.

So did Jesus mention the law when conversing with the Jews?

Jesus was sent to the Jews and they were under the law, so we would expect Him to discuss the law.

Because Jesus spoke about the law to the Jews does that mean, the Gentiles are therefore under the law?

Definitely not, because to be under the law you must be circumcised and be living in Israel.

This point is not open to debate because the O.T is clear on the requirement to celebrate the Passover, for a Gentile.

For a Jew in the first century sin was transgression of the law but for a Gentile, that is not true.
Where there is no law there is no violation.

Rom 4:15 ...for where no law is, there is no transgression.

We do not become Jews in Christ where did you get that from?

I feel like I am talking to a Catholic.

TMS said:

When people want to believe a lie they will find ways to do so. People will believe lies so they can justify their mind set.

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It is not a lie to observe that the law was given only to Israel.

Acts 15, tells us that Gentiles are not to be circumcised and are not under the yoke of the law.

That is what the scripture very clearly states.

You are definitely guilty of following a Catholic interpretation of the scripture.

If I discuss the law with a Catholic there is no difference with the SDA, they are identical.

Both say the law is binding.

Here I asked Google if the Catholic Church believes the ten words are binding?

Yes, the Catholic Church firmly believes that the Ten Commandments (the Decalogue) are binding for all people,
serving as the foundational moral law and a path to life and freedom. They are not considered optional, but
rather a "Divine positive law" revealed by God to provide clear guidance.

Don't tell me your not a Catholic because you are.

Inquisitor said:

We do not become Jews in Christ where did you get that from?

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Take note .... Jesus was a Jew.

Heb 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

If we discount all the scripture written to or for Jews then most of the Bible would be useless. A lot of what Paul wrote was from OT principles or stories.

Another excuse to divide the word so you don't need to apply it to yourself.

ALL SCRIPTURE. 2Ti 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

THE MAN OF GOD.... the blood line makes no difference..

The children of God were Israel.

Israel = (Hebrew: Yisrael) originates from the Bible, meaning "one who struggles/strives with God". Derived from sara ("to struggle/fight") and el ("God"), representing Jacob's struggle with the divine and humanity, yet prevailing.
It is the name given to Jacob, whose descendants became the "Children of Israel" or the Jewish people.

Are we the children of God?

Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

There is no way this is literally 144000. Literally 12000 from each tribe.
Spiritually it works.

We are told....

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 12:4-5
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

ONE BODY... ONE FAMILY.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Rom 8:14-15
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Sons of God by the Spirit of ADOPTION.

We are children of God by faith.

But you like to say your a Gentile because that justifies making the parts of word void for you.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Rom 3:30-31
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.