Loss of salvation???

Toknow · Friday at 4:40 PM

markss said:
It all comes down to our soteriology. I find in Scripture that we are reconciled to God in Christ, and not in anything we've done or not done. For me, this is definitive. What I do not gain by good works I do not lose by bad works.

This is not for me, but I did read through it because it's the conversation we're also having. You owe me a reply, BTW.

The thinking that I can lose my salvation frames salvation in an ongoing transactional nature, we keep going back to the store to make our next layaway payment of good works, so we don't lose our salvation.

I understand my salvation to be of a covenantal nature, and that covenent based in what Jesus did. Entering into that covenant is our salvation, and the ongoing part is our sanctification, discipling, training in holiness and righteousness.

In every Covenant, God demanded obedience.
Do you believe He does NOT demand obedience in the New Covenant?

You speak of Sanctification.

What does that mean exactly?

Could we be sanctified if we do NOT obey God?
And what does it mean to obey Him?

If we do NOT obey God, do we break this ongoing transaction, as you called it?

God has made us holy, in that He has set us apart for Himself. To live holy means to live according to His intent for us. When we are first reborn, we have to be trained by God to walk in the Way. And while Scripture speaks of our maturity, it also speaks of this training continuing throughout our lives.

How do we say that because we are still being trained, and as a result of our continuing lack of maturity, continue to make bad choices, continue to have baseless fears, or whatever it is that leads us to sin, yielding to our flesh, where is the cut off? How many sins before you are lost again?

Why must this most silly question be constantly asked of those that believe we must obey God?

Why do you insist on knowing a cut-off point?
Do you want to sin as much as you can and still avoid the cut-off point?

No.

Then why ask this question?

Do you think a person can mock God??

I see our relationship with our Father as just that, He is Father, we His children, and He will chasten us as needed, but He doesn't disown us. Too much in Scripture assures me that He does not disown us, return us to flesh life, without His Spirit.

You are assured of your salvation for as long as you are IN CHRIST.

There are many passages that speak about those that LEAVE THEIR FAITH....
FALL AWAY...
DO NOT BELIEVE TILL THE END.

I've asked before:

Should we remove those passages from the NT?
Should we just ignore them?

Did you ever find out what being SEALED means?
I venture to say that you did not.
The information may not confirm what you want to believe...

Yes, touching on security, there are many passages that make plain statements that would be rendered untrue if the regenerate were to again become unregenerate, I am compelled to accept them for what they plainly say.

What do they plainly say markss?

If they're plain statements....
why are they not accepted?

I spent several years, some time ago, gathering up every list of Scriptures that people put on line to show that salvation could be lost. I wanted to examine everyone's arguments that I was wrong, I value truth. It's meaningless if it's not real. Not only did I learn that not one of these hundreds of verses I examined actually did say one's salvation could be lost, but I found that many of them actually affirmed the opposite, that nothing will ever separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Not one of the verses you studied state that a person could lose their salvation??
I've given you plenty...more than enough to cause doubt.

You reject what the NT plainly states.

Hebrews 12 contains one of the most wonderful promises in the Bible, in my view. He has promised not only to chasten me as needed, but He has also promised that His chastening will be effect, resulting in the peaceable works of righteousness.

The book of Hebrews.
You want to say that the book of Hebrews does not support the fact that salvation can be forfeited?

The same book that states:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age

6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10:26
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 5:9
9And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Hebrews 3:12
12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Yes sir.
I'd keep away from the book of Hebrews.

It CLEARLY states that our salvation could be forfeited.

Who is it who would slip through His safety net? I mean, I'm not saying, just charge into sin, knowing He'll spank you before you go too far. My friend put it this way, "I learned the fear of the Lord when I realized how much He can mess with me life!" Chastening can be exceedingly grievous. He tears, and He binds up. That's how it works. The point is, it DOES work. None are lost.

Much love!

Better to listen to Jesus and the writers of the NT instead of a friend or any man.

You owe me a reply exactly on the Hebrew scripture.
It should be easy for you to explain away all those verses on loss of salvation....
or not.

sawdust · Friday at 4:40 PM

studier said:
If Faith-Alone soteriology says no ongoing belief/obedience is necessary to remain saved,

Who says it does? As far as I see with those who believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security, it is God's promise and His fidelity that keeps us saved. Our fidelity results in an abundant life or less abundance accordingly and if we do a really bad job of our Christian walk loss of rewards in the temporal and eternal states.

If we have to rely upon our own faithfulness for salvation then we will forever be "navel gazing" seeking correction in our own strength rather than looking to the One who is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb.12:2

This is why salvation (which includes sanctification) is by grace through faith and not of ourselves.

studier · Friday at 4:47 PM

Kroogz said:
No matter our definition of works, true divine works cannot come until we are sealed with the Spirit.

Which makes faith alone in Christ alone true. Apart from being saved and in the Spirit....there is no obedience. There are no works.

Salvation must come first.......Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Sealed with the Spirit and given eternal life......Only then can the believer participate in obedience and works. Through the Holy Spirit.

No salvation.....no works.

With no definition of works, works cannot be understood.

True, we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, so those good works come after being created in Christ Jesus.

False, this does not make FACA true.

False, "apart from being saved and in the Spirit, there is no obedience." There is obedience coupled with faith when we first believe - believing is obedience.

Maybe True maybe False - "There are no works" - It depends on what you classify as works. Jesus told unbelievers believing in Him was work God requires. Paul clarifies this is not works of law, nor work that indebts God to us. I think Paul accepts Jesus teaching about the work God requires that is not of law and does not indebt Him.

You're sounding in some places like those I know you adamantly disagree with. They favor a flower. No offense intended.

mailmandan · Friday at 4:47 PM

Toknow said:
You even received a very nice post from someone that also understands your post was not clear...
Wonder if you ever gave a reply?

If you like the word OBEY...
what are we debating here?

I can clearly state that we must obey God.
Why don't you?

You also don't care for the word MUST.
As if we had a choice to either obey jesus or not.

Jesus issues commands that His disciples will need to follow
IF they wish to be His disciples.

John 15:14
14 You are my friends if you do what I command

Note:
You are my friends IF you do what I command.

If you do what I command, you are my friends...
If you DO NOT DO what I command, you are not my friends.

Simple English.

The IF creates a condition that requires following.

you CHOSE to obey in the Son for salvation?

AFTER salvation.....

Do you NOT CHOOSE to obey the Son?

We're speaking about AFTER salvation MMD.

NO Christian I know believes his good works will cause him to be right with God FOR SALVATION...
for justification.

WHY would an unbeliever need to obey??

We're speaking of believers.
Believers are required to obey Jesus.

That sounds pretty close.

So if we are saved for good works...
it means we are to do good works.....?

So we agree?

I also put works in their proper sequence.

So we could agree now?

Oh.
Excuse me.
I just realized you're using a new tactic now!

But it's not new Dan.

Those who do not believe will see the wrath of God.
Jesus said so Himself in

John 3:18
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

It's just confirming my statements:
UNBELIEVERS are not required to obey ...
they are condemned already.

If believers obey,,,,
why are believers told to obey?

I do wonder if the problem is the English language...
maybe it's too difficult...
or if it's the unwillingness to accept what JESUS taught.

You're using John 3:18 to support your claim that believers choose to believe and thus obey Jesus to believe in Him?

OK.

What about after we're saved?
Should we CONTINUE to CHOOSE to believe in the commands of Jesus?

I have covered all of this with you multiple times in the past and no amount of responses to your straw man arguments and loaded questions will clear up your confusion.

Toknow · Friday at 4:49 PM

kinda said:
300 pages for method and purpose of how salvation works?

Nahhhhh

Ummm. I don't like to argue, it's a waste... State your case, can't agree, move on...

Let me summarize, you don't agree with Calvin, I do. Da end...

that's the beauty of memes.

Very good kinda.
And I agree with you.
But it's not 300 pages...
it's just a few verses that sound like predestination toward individuals.

As to a free lecture...
yeah.
Been told I don't undersand it.

Keep those memes coming!!
I love them!

I also love my refomred brothers...
although some make it a bit difficult...

mailmandan · Friday at 4:51 PM

sawdust said:
I thought I understood your post. Correct me if I am wrong but essentially you said "believing the word of God is obeying". Whether that is for initial salvation or for subsequent salvation (sanctification). This is why we are saved by grace, through faith. Eph.2:8

For without faith no-one can please God, Heb.11:6 therefore anything that is done must flow from faith or it is worthless no matter how much you give to the poor, or clothe the naked etc.

There are those who would argue against faith alone as if James was comparing dead faith as an actual reality. Dead faith doesn't exist, that was James' point. Only when one trusts the word of God to be true and relies on it (believe), does that belief get converted to saving faith by means of the grace given and the power that is in the word (faith comes from the word Rom.10:17 ). Then the good works that the Lord has prepared for us will naturally flow forth from that faith and not merely from guilt, fear or pride regarding obedience to a list of rules as the method to be saved and the Christian way of life.

John 20:31
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Anyone who would claim we don't like the word "obey" simply is ignorant as far as I am concerned, for there is nothing that makes us happier than to believe in the word of God. His word is truth and life and the riches of contentment flow from believing His word.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Choosing to believe in the Son (Jesus) for salvation is the act of obedience that saves. (John 3:36) Just like choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. (Romans 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow."

markss · Friday at 4:51 PM

studier said:
Sounds like well thought out eternal security (Reformed or Free-Grace or??), which I likely will disagree with.

At the end of the day that's where I think disagreements arise from between otherwise agreeable persons. That one gives more weight to this passage, and the other gives more weight to that passage.

My endeavor is that I give the most weight to those that make the least ambiguous statements.

It seems to me that there are places that you can interpret a couple of ways, or more, while other places really only allow a single interpretation. So I try to interpret the ambiguous by the unambiguous.

Regardless, I appreciate your manner, and I feel certain we'll have good interactions to come!

Much love!

markss · Friday at 4:52 PM

Toknow said:
You owe me a reply, BTW.

If you would, re-ask me what you are looking for. Appreciate it!

Much love!

Toknow · Friday at 4:53 PM

mailmandan said:
I have covered all of this with you multiple times in the past and no amount of responses to your straw man arguments and loaded questions will clear up your confusion.

The confusion, dear sir,
is not on this end of the screen.

The NT is most clear that we are to obey every command Jesus left us with.

These commands include WORKS/GOOD DEEDS.

I add good deeds because, apparently, WORKS are not well understood by some that declare that we are not saved by good wroks.

JUSTIFICATION = NO WORKS (OF ANY KIND) NEEDED
SANCTIFICATION = WORKS/GOOD DEEDS NEEDED.

Toknow · Friday at 4:55 PM

markss said:
If you would, re-ask me what you are looking for. Appreciate it!

Much love!

Go through your alerts markss.

You know me well enough to know that I don't have a lot of time here and even skip days.

Let's do this:...
Just reply to my very last post to you just 10 minutes ago.

It has passages from Hebrews, which we were also discussing in the "lost" post of mine.

It seems to me that if PAUL says that we could FALL AWAY,,,it's not vague at all.

It seems to me that if JESUS says we could lose our salvation....
there is NOTHING MORE CLEAR.

mailmandan · Friday at 4:56 PM

Toknow said:
The confusion, dear sir,
is not on this end of the screen.

The NT is most clear that we are to obey every command Jesus left us with.

These commands include WORKS/GOOD DEEDS.

I add good deeds because, apparently, WORKS are not well understood by some that declare that we are not saved by good wroks.

JUSTIFICATION = NO WORKS (OF ANY KIND) NEEDED
SANCTIFICATION = WORKS/GOOD DEEDS NEEDED.

So, are we saved FOR good works or BY good works? (Ephesians 2:10)

Toknow · Friday at 4:58 PM

mailmandan said:
I have covered all of this with you multiple times in the past and no amount of responses to your straw man arguments and loaded questions will clear up your confusion.

Also, let me clarify.....

I do enjoy discussing with you....
but surely you must realize that I post for those reading along....

You don't really think I have any hope of changing YOUR fixed ideas, do you?
(or you mine).

Toknow · Friday at 5:00 PM

mailmandan said:
So, are we saved FOR good works or BY good works? (Ephesians 2:10)

FOR good works, of course.
How many times have I stated that no amount of good works will save anyone, but only faith in God.

How many times have I posted the word AFTER salvation?

Now YOU answer, for the umpteenth time:

AFTER salvation....
ARE WE REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD?

markss · Friday at 5:06 PM

Toknow said:
It should be easy for you to explain away all those verses on loss of salvation....
or not.

Look, I'm not really into a converstation where I'm challenged to "explain away" the verses we disagree over.

And this post is far too long for me to really tackle right now.

If you have a single particular question you'd like to ask me, let's get back to simple.

You were asking about Hebrews 3:12?

Hebrews 3:9-19 KJV
9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10) Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

They were being called to enter God's rest, but they chose not to from unbelief, instead departing from God, because of their evil heart of unbelief.

An evil heart of unbelief does not describe a regenerate child of God. Now you may say, this is a Christian who has apostasized, but the context is that of those who were not following God, who did not know Him, and this exortation is to not be like them.

There is no conflict with the passages that make simple statements showing our enduring salvation.

This is further affirmed in the next few verses:

Hebrews 4:1-3 KJV
1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This passage is about not refusing salvation, entering into His rest, not about the born again being lost again.

Much love!

mailmandan · Friday at 5:06 PM

Toknow said:
FOR good works, of course.
How many times have I stated that no amount of good works will save anyone, but only faith in God.

How many times have I posted the word AFTER salvation?

Now YOU answer, for the umpteenth time:

AFTER salvation....
ARE WE REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD?

FOR good works is correct. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Required to obey God is our reasonable service.

markss · Friday at 5:07 PM

Toknow said:
Go through your alerts markss.

You know me well enough to know that I don't have a lot of time here and even skip days.

Let's do this:...
Just reply to my very last post to you just 10 minutes ago.

It has passages from Hebrews, which we were also discussing in the "lost" post of mine.

It seems to me that if PAUL says that we could FALL AWAY,,,it's not vague at all.

It seems to me that if JESUS says we could lose our salvation....
there is NOTHING MORE CLEAR.

I've already replied to one place. I think we've made the rounds on this topic.

Much love!

Ouch · Friday at 5:10 PM

Kroogz said:
No matter our definition of works, true divine works cannot come until we are sealed with the Spirit.

Which makes faith alone in Christ alone true. Apart from being saved and in the Spirit....there is no obedience. There are no works.

Salvation must come first.......Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Sealed with the Spirit and given eternal life......Only then can the believer participate in obedience and works. Through the Holy Spirit.

No salvation.....no works.

I sure do agree with no salvation no works.

Toknow · Friday at 5:10 PM

markss said:
Look, I'm not really into a converstation where I'm challenged to "explain away" the verses we disagree over.

And this post is far too long for me to really tackle right now.

If you have a single particular question you'd like to ask me, let's get back to simple.

You were asking about Hebrews 3:12?

Hebrews 3:9-19 KJV
9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10) Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

They were being called to enter God's rest, but they chose not to from unbelief, instead departing from God, because of their evil heart of unbelief.

An evil heart of unbelief does not describe a regenerate child of God. Now you may say, this is a Christian who has apostasized, but the context is that of those who were not following God, who did not know Him, and this exortation is to not be like them.

There is no conflict with the passages that make simple statements showing our enduring salvation.

This is further affirmed in the next few verses:

Hebrews 4:1-3 KJV
1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This passage is about not refusing salvation, entering into His rest, not about the born again being lost again.

Much love!

Interesting markss.

You don't have time to reply to my verses,,,,

but instead post some of your own.

I don't really like playing verse ping pong.

Just quick:

WHY were the Israelites NOT let into the promised land?
Why was Moses not let in?

IF you like to harmonize scripture...
WHY won't you harmonize Hebrews?

Why is it a challenge?

I've explained MANY of your verses.

It's not a challenge because yours CAN be explained away.

The verses I post to YOU, cannot...I understand this.

And again,,,,,
I REALLY would not use the book of Hebrews to support your belief that salvation cannot be lost.

You should read my verses from Hebrews again...
they are very clear.

Toknow · Friday at 5:11 PM

markss said:
I've already replied to one place. I think we've made the rounds on this topic.

Much love!

Oh...there are never enough rounds.

But I know replying can be tought when confrnted with scripture that does NOT harmonize with your incorrect beliefs.

Correct theology is always easy to explain.

Toknow · Friday at 5:14 PM

Kroogz said:
No matter our definition of works, true divine works cannot come until we are sealed with the Spirit.

Which makes faith alone in Christ alone true. Apart from being saved and in the Spirit....there is no obedience. There are no works.

Salvation must come first.......Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Sealed with the Spirit and given eternal life......Only then can the believer participate in obedience and works. Through the Holy Spirit.

No salvation.....no works.

Kroogz

The above post is so incredibly .............pick a word...but not a flattering one.

HOW MANY TIMES must it be repeated that an UNBELIEVER IS NOT REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.
AN UNBELIEVER IS NOT REQUIRED TO DO ANY GOOD WORKS.

Answer this:

AFTER SALVATION
Are we required to do obey God?
Are we required to do good works/deeds?

Loss of salvation???

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