Loss of salvation???

[markss]

LOL, it was a question, I was asking someone if there are any conditions to being reborn and staying reborn.

Was told just "Believe using the faith HE has given us"

So that was my question to him.

Concerning "staying reborn", and the need for obedience, I find this is addressed by John.

The concern is, IF we are permanently saved, where is the motivation to live holy lives? I mean, if we don't lose anything if we don't live holy, then why bother?

Some teach that you have to remain obedient to remain saved, so there's the carrot and the stick. Obey or die. There's your motivation.

The Old Covenant was that way, a list of rules, you obey or die. That this ordinance continued was shown in the sacrifices, which were perpetual, because they could not remove sin, and so you had to obey, or die, though the sacrifice would cover your disobedience if offered to God in faith, looking for His mercy.

The New Covenant is not a list of rules, however, it's a changed man. Now we are not bound to an external list of rules, we are conformed in the inner man to a new Way, a new life.

What is it that makes us want to make the effort to live the new way? John answers with this:

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Here it is, the one who "purifies himself even as he is pure", who is this? It's the one who has "this hope". What hope is it?

We know that when he shall appear, we shall be like Him. This is a simple declarative statement. John's Greek is very simple, I don't really know another way to interpret his words here. We know that when he appears we will be like Him. Who is "we"? The sons of God. Those who are regenerated. Reborn.

If we are reborn now, we will be like Him when He appears. No other qualifications. If you are His child, you will be like Him when He appears.

Every man who has "this hope", that is, an expectation of what is coming based on your believing the Word of God, purifies himself.

Biblical hope is when we believe what God promises, and therefore expect that it will happen. Jesus said He will raise us from the dead, we have the hope of the resurrection.

Here, God has promised that He will make us like Him, and as we believe this promise, we expect that it will happen.

We expect that God will complete our transformation to be like Him, and because of that, we go on to purify ourselves. And isn't that what we truly want?

Much love!

 

[PennEd]

And if I don't feel conviced I am!!!

Just have to love how easy it is to be heaven bound.

Wonder why all of JESUS disciples were murdered???

When it's us who can do the murdering???

Is English your first language? Difficult deciphering parts of your post.

I don’t think God thought it was easy to send His Son to die for those that would obey His Gospel.

I DO know that by adding ANYTHING you do to His completed work, as a requirement is equivalent to trampling on His Blood.

I tremble for those that do that.

 

[studier]

This is what Paul states comes from this perverted logic >>>> "let us do evil that good may come."

He also states that those at the time who were making these slanderous comments against him, have a condemnation that is just because it comes from a heart of unbelief.

Read it all and see.

Romans 3: 5-8

5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,)
Let us do evil, that good may come?
...... whose condemnation is just.

If Faith-Alone soteriology says no ongoing belief/obedience is necessary to remain saved, then isn't what @Ouch asked logical? He's not the first to ask the same type of thing.

The response shows how Paul responds to a [likely] allegation against Paul re: doing evil so good comes. Doesn't Paul elaborate on this in Rom6:1-2 by emphatically rejecting continuing in sin so grace increases? And what is sin if not disobedience, and what is disobedience if not unbelief?

So, by Paul emphatically rejecting continuing/remaining in sin, he is emphatically asserting continuing/remaining in faith-obedience.

The question about some faith-alone theology seems quite logical - if there is no requirement for remaining in faith-obedience, then why is there requirement against living in sin?

 

[NightTwister]

I knew you would come along. lol

I've been chosen...

 

[Ouch]

Is English your first language? Difficult deciphering parts of your post.

I don’t think God thought it was easy to send His Son to die for those that would obey His Gospel.

I DO know that by adding ANYTHING you do to His completed work, as a requirement is equivalent to trampling on His Blood.

I tremble for those that do that.

You do know that conviction leads to an action right?

Acts 2:37-41
King James Version
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? WHAT SHALL WE DO???

THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, (CONVICTION) WHAT SHALL WE DO???

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

THEY GLADLY RECEIVED HIS WORD!!!!!!!!!!! GLADLY!!!!


Acts 19
King James Version
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

WHEN THEY HEARD THIS (CONVICTION) THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS!!!!!!

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Your trembling for the wrong ones!!!

Are you convicted?

You are saying "I DO know that by adding ANYTHING you do to His completed work, as a requirement is equivalent to trampling on His Blood."

Those who were convicted and obeyed are trampling on HIS BLOOD.

 

[mailmandan]

Is English your first language? Difficult deciphering parts of your post.

I don’t think God thought it was easy to send His Son to die for those that would obey His Gospel.

I DO know that by adding ANYTHING you do to His completed work, as a requirement is equivalent to trampling on His Blood.

I tremble for those that do that.

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6) No supplements needed.

 

[Kroogz]

If Faith-Alone soteriology says no ongoing belief/obedience is necessary to remain saved, then isn't what @Ouch asked logical? He's not the first to ask the same type of thing.

The response shows how Paul responds to a [likely] allegation against Paul re: doing evil so good comes. Doesn't Paul elaborate on this in Rom6:1-2 by emphatically rejecting continuing in sin so grace increases? And what is sin if not disobedience, and what is disobedience if not unbelief?

So, by Paul emphatically rejecting continuing/remaining in sin, he is emphatically asserting continuing/remaining in faith-obedience.

The question about some faith-alone theology seems quite logical - if there is no requirement for remaining in faith-obedience, then why is there requirement against living in sin?

Discipline. We have examples in His word. For those who continue in a lifestyle of sin.......They are handed over to Satan for the destruction of the FLESH.......So that their Spirit may be saved.

The sin unto death.

Law of faith......Believe in the Lord Jesus And you shall be saved....Eternal life.

Don't continue in faith?......Sin unto death.


Why is this not enough punishment for a carnal believer? It seems to be the most shameful and terrible type of discipline that can be handed down.

 

[Ouch]

But you said grace means we can just live in sin, but why would you want to? Who is it who is regenerated who rejoices in sin?

I hear this bandied about as an objection to grace through faith forever rebirth, that it means we can freely sin all we want. So I ask, how much do you want?

To me this is a groundless objection, because the one in whom is God's Spirit, that person isn't going to just say, So happy that now I can sin with impunity! Quite the opposite, that sin grieves us, and more so as we mature.

What is it exactly that is missing from Jesus Christ's death and resurrection that you feel you add by your works? And I ask this giving consideration to the fact that it's God's Spirit working in us that enables us to do our good works.

Do you truly believe Jesus' death was lacking in some way?

We are reconciled to God in Christ, not in ourselves.

Much love!

Are you talking to ME???? I never said, "But you said grace means we can just live in sin"

We are saved by grace, GOD graciously gave us water for us to remove our sins when we get baptized in JESUS wonderful name!

It's was JESUS who did that nothing we can do except OBEY!!

 

[Toknow]

I knew you would come along. lol

They're all tooooo good Kinda!
I'm still laughing.

No. 2
Yeah,,,I feel badly for the reformed !!
Kinda like for the Catholics...
always gets back to THAT.

Are these wonderful jokes found in the Institutes of the Christian Religion??

 

[studier]

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Here it is, the one who "purifies himself even as he is pure", who is this? It's the one who has "this hope". What hope is it?

We know that when he shall appear, we shall be like Him. This is a simple declarative statement. John's Greek is very simple, I don't really know another way to interpret his words here. We know that when he appears we will be like Him. Who is "we"? The sons of God. Those who are regenerated. Reborn.

If we are reborn now, we will be like Him when He appears. No other qualifications. If you are His child, you will be like Him when He appears.

Is self-purification in effect required? Isn't this self-purification also a declarative statement?

Doesn't 1John3 continue and immediately put the context of self-purification into the context of not sinning - not being antinomian - remaining in Christ - doing righteousness...?

Is this not continuing in faith-obedience because we have a future of seeing Him and being like Him?

Are you sure there's no carrot & stick here?

 

[Toknow]

What does 7259 have to do with my post or ouch figuring out something?

Here's what it has to do with it:

You've explained the classical meaning for FAITH ALONE.

Is this what most take it to mean TODAY?

Luther taught faith alone.
BUT
he did NOT believe in OSAS.

Those that preach FAITH ALONE TODAY are the same ones that believe in OSAS,,,,
as @Ouch has shown by a question in his post no. 7529

So, maybe we could try this:

FAITH ALONE is referring to JUSTIFICATION...just as Luther taught.

Does it apply also to SANCTIFICATION?

IOW
Those that throw around the phrase FAITH ALONE preach monergism.
Monergism...man is required to do NOTHING EXCEPT have faith......throughout his life as a born again believer.

Is this what you believe?

OR
Do you believe in synergism?
Synergism...man is required to cooperate with God in order to hold on to what his FAITH ALONE has accomplished.

 

[studier]

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6) No supplements needed.

And believers are at minimum ones who obey, no?

 

[studier]

Discipline. We have examples in His word. For those who continue in a lifestyle of sin.......They are handed over to Satan for the destruction of the FLESH.......So that their Spirit may be saved.

The sin unto death.

Law of faith......Believe in the Lord Jesus And you shall be saved....Eternal life.

Don't continue in faith?......Sin unto death.

Why is this not enough punishment for a carnal believer? It seems to be the most shameful and terrible type of discipline that can be handed down.

As you know, I understand the system of soteriology. I also understand other systems that disagree with it. I think it's all worthy of continued study and thought.

Look up Bayes' Theorem and Bayesian Hermeneutics. I simply decided some time ago to not be locked into specific systematics. It was only recently I looked at Bayes.

Have you noticed a little bit of a switch going on in some here re: faith and obedience as it pertains to coming to Christ? Do you recall the repeated pulpit-pounding statement 'if you add anything to faith, then you're not saved'?

 

[kinda]

They're all tooooo good Kinda!
I'm still laughing.

No. 2
Yeah,,,I feel badly for the reformed !!
Kinda like for the Catholics...
always gets back to THAT.

Are these wonderful jokes found in the Institutes of the Christian Religion??

I have been cracking up also. Nothing like a good joke.

Why do you feel badly about the reformed?
You think predestination is like being Catholic?

That's a good question. I wouldn't be able to answer that question in a 100% certainty, but I definitely think there is scripture support for predestination. No doubt about it. Now if your laughing at the memes, there is a possibility there is truth in there.. Yes?!?!

Ephesians 1:4-5

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

 

[studier]

OR
Do you believe in synergism?
Synergism...man is reuired to cooperate with God in order to hold on to his faith.

FWIW, the more I worked with the word "synergism" the less I liked it. I instead at this time prefer how you elaborated and said "cooperation". Synergism can tend to infer that we bring to the table more than we do. I'm not asserting anything dogmatically, just putting forth some of the results of looking at some definitions and watching arguments. Using the Text I'm seeing more of a willingly cooperative abiding/continual faith-obedience, while sunergeo seems to be used more in the sense of believers working together with the Lord and one another in the work of the Ekklesia.

As a stand against monergism, I understand it and agree with the concept.

 

[Kroogz]

Do you recall the repeated pulpit-pounding statement 'if you add anything to faith, then you're not saved'?

Yep. And listen close to those pulpit pounders. They, in the end, rely on works.

Loss of salvation.......Works.

Not really saved........Works.

Eternal security. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Don't have works? Don't have obedience?........Your flesh will be destroyed. Eternal life is just that....ETERNAL.

And God has great mercy and patience for these carnal believers. Us? Not so much, we throw them to the LoF or tell them they are not really saved......We are a sad bunch, Thank God For His Grace.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Here's what it has to do with it:

You've explained the classical meaning for FAITH ALONE.

Is this what most take it to mean TODAY?

Luther taught faith alone.
BUT
he did NOT believe in OSAS.

Those that preach FAITH ALONE TODAY are the same ones that believe in OSAS,,,,
as @Ouch has shown by a question in his post no. 7529

So, maybe we could try this:

FAITH ALONE is referring to JUSTIFICATION...just as Luther taught.

Does it apply also to SANCTIFICATION?

IOW
Those that throw around the phrase FAITH ALONE preach monergism.
Monergism...man is required to do NOTHING EXCEPT have faith......throughout his life as a born again believer.

Is this what you believe?

OR
Do you believe in synergism?
Synergism...man is required to cooperate with God in order to hold on to what his FAITH ALONE has accomplished.

7259 wasn’t ouch.

 

[BBerean]

Hello grateful;

Here are words of Jesus that answers your questions;

Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Peace

 

[BBerean]

Excellent choice of Scriptures , John chatter 10 is a great chapter as well , verse 28 And I give unto them eternal life ; and they shall never perish …. We are in Jesus hand and also the father’s hand , that’s an eternal hand ! Amen praise God !

 

[studier]

Yep. And listen close to those pulpit pounders. They, in the end, rely on works.

The pulpit-pounder I referred to was RBT and that was his repeated faith-alone statement.

Many pulpits are pounded with different dogma.

"Works" still need better definition.