The Sin Nature is spiritual lust, not flesh and blood.
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You're not posting to me above...but...
The body only obeys the spirit...agreed, but as I said...
Everyone has a soul.
The soul tells the body what action to take.
For those of us that also have a spirit (all Christians) the spirit has an effect
on the soul and so the desires of the soul should change in telling the body what action to take.
The natural seed has no lust in it
Not sure what you mean.
The soul lusts for the flesh...
Can we say that the soul DIRECTS the flesh?
And so, you do know the Scripture, that says our works are also kept blameless by the faith of Jesus, and not only the soul and spirit by one's Faith Alone.
2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
The manner of life we live is the whole body of our works in life, for God and all men to see.
Clearly, soul and spirit is distinct from the body, so your assertion is meaningless. It's the soul that does the sinning with the body, not the body doing the sinning. It's the spirit that moves the body, not the body the spirit.
Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Christian tradition 101.
Scripture teaches that the soul is the hidden man of the heart, who is seen and known by the outward living:
1Pe 3:2
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
The life we live is our soul manifest in the flesh. Even as a tree is known by it's good or corrupt fruit, so is the soul known by outward blameless or corrupt living.
1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Which is why our soul is judged by our works, and not by our mind, will, intellect, memory, imagination, and emotions alone. AKA one's Faith Alone.
And, what about faith in your litany of the soul? Why is your Faith Alone particularly left out of the soul? Even as without works?
And so we see by Faith Alone having nothing to do with the soul of a man, it confirms that Faith Alone without works is dead to both the life and the soul.
The spirit is not spiritual? Ok, as Scripture says, both the mind and the spirit are carnal, when walking after the flesh with the body.
Rom 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
So, the mind and spirit is carnal, and the soul is dead by sinning with the body.
Well done. Spoken like the carnal minded.
The soul dies by sinning against the Spirit of God, not the natural body and brain.
1Co 2:14
For the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The hidden man of the heart that lusts and sins against the true God, is spiritually dead and blind to the life and mind of Christ Jesus.
Faith Alone is for carnal minded sinners, that believe they are alive to God, because their bodies and brains aren't dead. (Though being carnally minded is brain dead to the Spirit's words of life written in Scripture.)
Now I see why there is such a gulf fixed between the saint's reading of Scriptures, and that of sinners. We forget what it's like to read the Bible with a carnal mind.
The verse you quoted doesn't support your assertion.
It seems you are arguing against an assertion I have not made. If you have a problem with the clear distinction of the three presented in Scripture, take it up with God.
Scripture neither delineates, nor precludes the delineation of the soul's components.
Have I ever implied that "mind, will, intellect, memory, imagination, and emotions" are either "alone" or also known as "faith alone"?
No.
You don't read too good.
Again, you don't read too good.
Your comment is meaningless blather.
Cite the Scripture supporting your assertion, showing that the soul dies instantly upon the commission of sin.
Irrelevant.
Your slander is noted.
Makes total sense if you don’t think about it. He basically said my problem was thinking about what I believe. We just have to figure out how to believe without thinking about what we believe or something like that
You make a good point. I believe Luther did as some Christians that escape the law and commandments of men, that are preached for that of Christ:
Mat 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col 2:21
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Luther was bound by the error of believing that suffering of the body, made for piety with God. I believe it was while he was practicing ascending the stairs of the Roman chapel on his knees, that the Lord spoke to him of how the Just shall live by faith...And so, he went on to learn and practice his liberty in the law of the Lord.
1Ti 6:17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
Sometimes the rebound from religious privation, goes to far into excess in the name of liberty. I've known Pentecosts that broke from the 'holiness' stranglehold, only to then go into excess of things, until they learned to moderate their newfound liberty in Christ.
2 pet 1:4
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
It's already in the Scriptures given of the opening teaching. If you want to read it, and comment about any details, I'll be glad to look at it.
It's one's own Faith Alone, if being justified while doing unrighteousness. If one's faith alone is in a Christ, that does justify them while doing evil, then it's not Jesus Christ the righteous.
If you say so. But I never justify myself while disobeying the word of the Lord, especially not by any Faith Alone in a false Christ.
Okay, as you choose not to provide evidence, I will respond with assertions:
There is no Scripture stating or implying that “the body only obeys the spirit”.
There is no Scripture stating or implying that
“the natural seed has no lust in it”.
There is no Scripture stating or implying that
“the soul lusts for the flesh”.
I like your clarification. I try to only use the words quoted in Scripture, but I can see your point of leeway.
Yes, the natural body of skin, blood, bone, etc.... is all made by Christ of dust, and has no sin nor righteousness in itself, any more than grass.
Isa 40:6The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field.
Gen 2:5
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Until God breathes the spirit into the body, the natural body remains nothing but a bag of dirt, with no life nor will of it's own. The natural body does not become a living soul, but rather the soul the inner man of the heart, who uses the body for good or evil.
The body of a car is only metal, unless gas is firing the engine. So does the soul and spirit of a man move the body to act. It's not the body's work but the spirit's with the body.
A hot air balloon is only rubber, without the air on fire within.
The soul, heart, mind, and spirit of a man is the inner man, not the outer body of skin. blood, and bone. The natural man's error is that the body is the man, without soul nor spirit. The error of natural theology is that the soul and spirit is the body.
The truth of God creating man in His own image, is that the soul and spirit is within a natural body, not of the body. The soul is not the body, and the heart and mind of a man, is not the brain and blood pump. People erroneously seek spiritual answers in the brain, which is only naturally functional tissue.
The soul and spirit of a man created in the image of God is both eternal, and has spiritual power to choose good or evil. The body is made, born, and dies naturally. It's the soul and spirit that do the works, and are judged by God for good or evil.
Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
We see in the relationship, that the works are done by the spirit, not done by the body alone. And faith alone is as a natural dead body without the spirit, that does the works.
Faith Aloners have it backwards. They believe, like the natural man, that the works are only the body. And that faith is only with the spirit, hence being 'alone' without the works of the body. James 2 say that kind of faith is a dead corpse without the spirit.
Agreed.
It's explained like this:
Man is made up of BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT.
Each has its function.
BODY and SOUL = A HUMAN PERSON
BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT = A SPIRITUAL (SAVED) PERSON IN CONTACT WITH GOD.
Amen!
i know what you mean...but for some new Christians that might be reading along...
Can we clarify by stating that every man has a soul.
The soul is the mind, will and emotion of man...it's what activates man.
The SPIRIT, the God-part of man...is what activates the soul.
The spirit will affect the mind, will and emotion of a saved person,,,,his soul.
Yes sir !
Well, that was quite a leap!
But I do agree.
FAITH ALONE IS A DEAD FAITH.
Our faith, to be complete, must activate the body to do good.
Great explanation!
When I've done word studies, in every case wkere sarx (flesh) or soma (body) appear, where the context specifies whether this is the physical body or something else, the physical body is meant.
I don't see a single instance in Scripture that tells us "the flesh" in which sin lives is anything other than the body itself.
My understanding is that the corruption of the flesh is just that, damage to the body, and in particular the brain. When we are reborn, we begin the process of renewing the mind, which is to retrain our minds to follow the properties of our spirits, which are patterned after the Spirit of Christ in us, and to no longer follow the corrupt ways of our fleshy minds.
As a sufferer of CPTSD I have a lot of observation how the damaged brain produces corrupt decisions and so forth.
I think there are many passages which support this view.
Much love!
Hey markss
The brain produces bad decisions because the soul is directing it.
If the person is fortunate enough to know our Lord...the the spirit of that person will direct the soul...
and the soul will make better decision (all else being normal which may not be in your case).
The problem here is that Paul was putting forth an idea that is not easy to explain....
The fundamental problem with mankind --- his tendency toward sin is explained in different ways.
For instance.....the sin nature, which is my favorite word and that of most Protestants...
can also be called
THE FLESH
CONCUPISCENSE
If the word FLESH was used ONLY for the physical, some verses would make no sense...
here is one:
Romans 8:8
8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
See? If flesh meant only the physical, Paul would be saying that no human that has a physical body could please God !
I don't see anyone being immune. As soon as children start to form thoughts and intents, they are sinful.
I've come to see my condition as a macro version of what otherwise exists in people to lessor or greater degrees.
"Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mine"
Look as how Romans 8 treats this.
Romans 8:8-10 KJV
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Paul is treating this as being in flesh means we are not saved, not having the Spirit of God/Christ. When we receive the Spirit, we are different people . . . new creation . . .
What does it mean, the body is dead because of sin?
Romans 7:5 KJV
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
"our members" that is, our body parts. The writing is consistent throughout the Bible, that flesh is our physicallity, and the body is just that, our bodies.
Much love!
True. Good point again. You are distinguishing between skin flesh, and sinful 'flesh'. Scripture distinguishes between sinful flesh and natural flesh. And, men walking in the flesh, vs sinners walking after the flesh.
1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2Co 10:3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not walk after the flesh:
The error of natural theology is to make all flesh in Scripture the same, without making difference between the natural flesh and the doctrine of the flesh.
As you say, the 'skin' flesh is not sinful in itself, but rather lusting after the flesh is sinful. Which also includes the very thoughts and intents of our hearts:
2Co 1:12
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
Jas 3:15
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
The natural theologians would falsely call it an evil brain, but Jesus calls it an evil heart within the man:
Mat 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:
Evil thoughts are not flesh and blood, and so the doctrine of sinful 'flesh' is not the skin tissues. Sinful flesh, fleshly, and earthly only apply to the sinful heart and soul within the body, not the body itself.
God does not judge the natural body for the works of the flesh, but only the sinful, fleshly and earthly soul of the man:
Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Correct. The error is of the soul and spirit, not of the body. The spirit of a man is not responsible for natural errors of the body, such as deformity, blindness, and lame. Nor is the whole, lame, or blind body in error for evil doing, but only the soul and spirit within.
Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Jas 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The sin nature is spiritual, not physical. The nature of sin is lust of heart for the flesh, not the skin and bones lusting for sin.
Sinful flesh is a lusting fleshly heart, not sinful skin tissues and blood pump.
Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Jesus judges the act of adultery, by the lusting of the heart alone, even without doing so with the body. The body is nothing, it's the spirit that does the work.
Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Faith Alone without works, is the body alone without the spirit. Faith Alone is not the spirit alone without the works of the body.