Going there now,See my post #63, and ignore the keying error.
but no idea what a keying error is....
Going there now,See my post #63, and ignore the keying error.
You're not posting to me above...but...As you questioned my rationale, I’m clarifying.
Where do you get these ideas:
- The body only obeys the spirit
- the natural seed has no lust in it
- The soul lists for the flesh
???
1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Clearly, soul is distinct from spirit, so your assertion is incorrect.
Christian tradition 101.Soul is mind, will, intellect, memory, imagination, and emotions.
Notice that none of those are spiritual.
Well done. Spoken like the carnal minded.All humans, saved and unsaved, have these. If the soul died upon the commission of sin, all these faculties would die with it. They don't.
I was quoting ATG. They are his assertions, not mine.You're not posting to me above...but...
The body only obeys the spirit...agreed, but as I said...
Everyone has a soul.
The soul tells the body what action to take.
For those of us that also have a spirit (all Christians) the spirit has an effect
on the soul and so the desires of the soul should change in telling the body what action to take.
The natural seed has no lust in it
Not sure what you mean.
The soul lusts for the flesh...
Can we say that the soul DIRECTS the flesh?
OKI was quoting ATG. They are his assertions, not mine.
The verse you quoted doesn't support your assertion.And so, you do know the Scripture, that says our works are also kept blameless by the faith of Jesus, and not only the soul and spirit by one's Faith Alone.
2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
It seems you are arguing against an assertion I have not made. If you have a problem with the clear distinction of the three presented in Scripture, take it up with God.Clearly, soul and spirit is distinct from the body, so your assertion is meaningless. It's the soul that does the sinning with the body, not the body doing the sinning. It's the spirit that moves the body, not the body the spirit.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Scripture neither delineates, nor precludes the delineation of the soul's components.Christian tradition 101.
Scripture teaches that the soul is the hidden man of the heart, who is seen and known by the outward living:
Have I ever implied that "mind, will, intellect, memory, imagination, and emotions" are either "alone" or also known as "faith alone"?Which is why our soul is judged by our works, and not by our mind, will, intellect, memory, imagination, and emotions alone. AKA one's Faith Alone.
You don't read too good.The spirit is not spiritual?
Again, you don't read too good.Ok, as Scripture says, both the mind and the spirit are carnal, when walking after the flesh with the body.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
So, the mind and spirit is carnal, and the soul is dead by sinning with the body.
Your comment is meaningless blather.Well done. Spoken like the carnal minded.
Cite the Scripture supporting your assertion, showing that the soul dies instantly upon the commission of sin.The soul dies by sinning against the Spirit of God, not the natural body and brain.
Irrelevant.Faith Alone is for carnal minded sinners, that believe they are alive to God, because their bodies and brains aren't dead. (Though being carnally minded is brain dead to the Spirit's words of life written in Scripture.)
Your slander is noted.Now I see why there is such a gulf fixed between the saint's reading of Scriptures, and that of sinners. We forget what it's like to read the Bible with a carnal mind.
Makes total sense if you don’t think about it. He basically said my problem was thinking about what I believe. We just have to figure out how to believe without thinking about what we believe or something like thatThe verse you quoted doesn't support your assertion.
You make a good point. I believe Luther did as some Christians that escape the law and commandments of men, that are preached for that of Christ:Ar first, when I saw Luther standing up against the RCC for salvation by grace through faith, I admired his courage and conviction. However, that was before I learned more about his character. EVEN SO, I do not think it is fair to say that "Luther was a "known drunkard" A "drunkard" is not someone who sometimes drinks to excess (though this is a sin) Being "drunkard" represents the extreme case of in which a habit of excess has become part of our mind and bodies. As a counselor, I have had to assess whether an individual was an alcohol abuser or whether they had become alcohol dependent and were an alcoholic. Neither I nor my immediate family were in the habit of drinking.
There is another aspect to this and that is the availability of clean water. In pre-modern times, drinking water was a problem in cities. Since there was no separate sewage system, all running water and wells were contaminated with germs and water could not be drunk without precautionary measures. Moreover, people preferred to drink something with taste and nutritional value rather than simple water which is why beer and wine were widely used as everyday drinks and often consumed in large quantities. Germans preferred to drink low-alcohol beer, so that even children and young people could drink it
https://wittenbergcenter.de/martin-luther-and-the-beer
Occasionally, Luther admitted to drinking too much but this does not by itself make him a "drunkard." It would only if you have a tradition of total abstinence. The term μέθυσος designates one whose life is characterized by habitual intoxication. It is not a momentary lapse but an identity formed around the repeated surrender of reason and self-control to alcohol. The concept therefore addresses both a moral disposition and an enslaving practice.
SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ATG HE IS TALKING TO A PERSON THAT HAS BEEN BANNED.
Nah... that would require reading your blather.SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ATG HE IS TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING WE WANT BANNED.
It's already in the Scriptures given of the opening teaching. If you want to read it, and comment about any details, I'll be glad to look at it.As you questioned my rationale, I’m clarifying.
Where do you get these ideas:
- The body only obeys the spirit
- the natural seed has no lust in it
- The soul lists for the flesh
???
It's one's own Faith Alone, if being justified while doing unrighteousness. If one's faith alone is in a Christ, that does justify them while doing evil, then it's not Jesus Christ the righteous.Funny how you put that into the same sentence. Faith alone is rather the exact opposite of one justifying oneself. Faith alone is faith in being justified by His works and not our own.
If you say so. But I never justify myself while disobeying the word of the Lord, especially not by any Faith Alone in a false Christ.You’re the one justifying yourself with your own works.
Okay, as you choose not to provide evidence, I will respond with assertions:It's already in the Scriptures given of the opening teaching. If you want to read it, and comment about any details, I'll be glad to look at it.
@ATG happens to be correct for two reasons....
1. If we want to understand the flesh as skin...then, yes, the skin cannot sin....
it is the SOUL that CAUSES the skin to sin...skin is dead and is not alive as the soul is and as the spirit is.
This has nothing to do with belief in “faith alone”.Faith Aloners have it backwards. They believe, like the natural man, that the works are only the body. And that faith is only with the spirit, hence being 'alone' without the works of the body. James 2 say that kind of faith is a dead corpse without the spirit.
Agreed.I like your clarification. I try to only use the words quoted in Scripture, but I can see your point of leeway.
Yes, the natural body of skin, blood, bone, etc.... is all made by Christ of dust, and has no sin nor righteousness in itself, any more than grass.
Isa 40:6The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field.
Gen 2:5
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Until God breathes the spirit into the body, the natural body remains nothing but a bag of dirt, with no life nor will of it's own. The natural body does not become a living soul, but rather the soul the inner man of the heart, who uses the body for good or evil.
Amen!The body of a car is only metal, unless gas is firing the engine. So does the soul and spirit of a man move the body to act. It's not the body's work but the spirit's with the body.
A hot air balloon is only rubber, without the air on fire within.
i know what you mean...but for some new Christians that might be reading along...The soul, heart, mind, and spirit of a man is the inner man, not the outer body of skin. blood, and bone. The natural man's error is that the body is the man, without soul nor spirit. The error of natural theology is that the soul and spirit is the body.
The truth of God creating man in His own image, is that the soul and spirit is within a natural body, not of the body. The soul is not the body, and the heart and mind of a man, is not the brain and blood pump. People erroneously seek spiritual answers in the brain, which is only naturally functional tissue.
The soul and spirit of a man created in the image of God is both eternal, and has spiritual power to choose good or evil. The body is made, born, and dies naturally. It's the soul and spirit that do the works, and are judged by God for good or evil.
Well, that was quite a leap!Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
We see in the relationship, that the works are done by the spirit, not done by the body alone. And faith alone is as a natural dead body without the spirit, that does the works.
Faith Aloners have it backwards. They believe, like the natural man, that the works are only the body. And that faith is only with the spirit, hence being 'alone' without the works of the body. James 2 say that kind of faith is a dead corpse without the spirit.
The nature of sin is spiritual, not natural. Lust in the heart is the spiritual seed of sin, not anything natural, whether dust, seed, flesh, blood, or bone. It's the spirit and soul that sins against God, and spiritually dies by sin.
Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Only spiritual beings can sin against God, not the natural things of the earth.
Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
And so we see that all sin is spiritual in nature, having begun in heaven with the spirits of angels. And likewise, men and women on earth can also sin against God. Not because of natural flesh and blood, but only because of being created like the angels, with spiritual power to conceive our own lust against God:
Mat 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Jas 1:14
Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
And so we see that the the nature of all sin is spiritual from the heart, not natural from the flesh.
And, While all angels and men are created with spiritual power to corrupt our own hearts with lust to sin, no angel nor man is created by God with the sin of lust:
Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee...Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made…That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
We are all first created by Christ with the pure heart of the Spirit, but with power to corrupt our heart to lust against the Spirit.
And, Though unlike the angels in heaven, men and women are created with the same natural bodies of all creatures created by God on earth:
Heb 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Psa 8:4
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Only the spiritual heart of angels and men have the power to lust and sin against God. The natural seed has no lust in it to sin. The natural tongue has no lust in it to sin. The third middle finger has no lust in it to sin.
Jas 4:5
Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Only the spirit and soul of man is guilty of sinning with the natural body, not the body guilty of sinning against the soul.
Hey markssWhen I've done word studies, in every case wkere sarx (flesh) or soma (body) appear, where the context specifies whether this is the physical body or something else, the physical body is meant.
I don't see a single instance in Scripture that tells us "the flesh" in which sin lives is anything other than the body itself.
My understanding is that the corruption of the flesh is just that, damage to the body, and in particular the brain. When we are reborn, we begin the process of renewing the mind, which is to retrain our minds to follow the properties of our spirits, which are patterned after the Spirit of Christ in us, and to no longer follow the corrupt ways of our fleshy minds.
As a sufferer of CPTSD I have a lot of observation how the damaged brain produces corrupt decisions and so forth.
I think there are many passages which support this view.
Much love!
I don't see anyone being immune. As soon as children start to form thoughts and intents, they are sinful.(all else being normal which may not be in your case).
Romans 8:8
8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
2. In the NT by flesh Paul means that which makes us sin...IOW,,,Paul is referring it to the SIN NATURE of man but he's just calling it flesh.
Correct. The error is of the soul and spirit, not of the body. The spirit of a man is not responsible for natural errors of the body, such as deformity, blindness, and lame. Nor is the whole, lame, or blind body in error for evil doing, but only the soul and spirit within.And what causes us to sin? The sin nature.
Our "heart" which would actually be our soul,,,affected by our spirit,,,which causes us to be pleasing to God.
Our soul affects our body.
Our spirit affects our soul.