Understanding God’s election

Proof text?

IOW, you really don't know or aren't very sure of the kind of love God has for his children? Would it be a lower grade love than Abraham had for Issac when he went to offer him up to God out of obedience?

Okay...so permit me to reframe my question because you just muddied up the waters a bit. You admit there is a sense of filial love in scripture but earlier you saw God's love in Jn 3:16 only in the general, common, beneficent sense. So, here's the question that is far more restrictive than the previous one:

With what kind of love does God love his only Begotten Son: Beneficent? Filial? Other?

I believe Christians base their beliefs on what the Bible says. Not on mere religious traditions. That's why I ask for Biblical evidence from people claiming to be Christians and claiming to be teaching Christianity.

At the present time, they do go to heaven whiie they are waiting for the restoration of all things. But that in no way proves the claim that "we will live in heaven, not on earth, for eternity"

Call it filial as you chose. I'll understand it. But God is love and I don't think any of us truly understand this.

All of humanity created in His image have characteristics that are only related to His perfect attributes and that function imperfectly in relation to the perfect function of His perfect essence. We see dimly. We live dimly especially in our current state. Not one of us IS Love and Paul felt it necessary to pray for us to be able to grasp what Christ's love is actually like and even then, he had to express this in terms of physical dimensions.

With Love as best as it can be described in language of accommodation which seems to be more through the entire Text than with one of two adjectives.

God is Love. His Love is as He is - something we cannot fully grasp. The best we can do is try to ponder how such perfect love in perfect essence relates to a perfect Son, let alone to us.

Beneficent and filial are both ultimately just attempts to explain His love and His character or how He expresses His love which is His character. He's benevolent so we say such and such is beneficent love. He's described and related to as Fatherly and familial so such and such is His filial love. The Text says He is Love.

Reading 1John it seems to me the best we can do to understand Love is to love one another as Christ loved us which IMO we're not doing very well.

Wouldn't it be more productive if we all were redeeming our limited time seeking to know more than this or that theory about what the kosmos means in John3:16 in order to prove or to disprove a theological system of interpretation?

So...when it says nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, how does that relate to what you just posted?

I see.

Where does our father tell us we shall not live in Heaven for eternity?
Specifically,please.

Thank you in advance.

PaulThomson said:
Since agape love treasures that which is inherently valuable, it experiences displeasure in whatever devalues that whch is inherently valuable. So, in the case of creatures, God loves the creature for whatb is inherntly valuable in it, but hates/is displeased with th creature to the degree that it devalues in itself and other creatures that which is inherently valuable. This is why scripture says that God hates sinners, but also says that He loves sinners.

So God's love for the Son cannot be mixed with any displeasure. But His love for creatures can be mixed with some or much displeasure. Even cretaures who are presently totally sold out to devaluing everything God loves, are loved by God for what in them is intrinsically valuable: even if that is merely the repressed potential remaining in them by design to repent and begin to grow toward love and goodness.



Well, we are told that when Christ returns his saints will descend with Him -
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

And He will reign with them on the earth for one thousand years -

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And we are told that after that, the heavens and earth will be dissolved on fervent heat -

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

And a new heaven and a new earth will be created and the heavenly city will descend onto that earth -

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God...
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And men will live there in the light of God's presence.

Rev.21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

None of that tells us to expect to be living in heaven, not on earth, for eternity.

So...when it says nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, how does that relate to what you just posted?

PaulThomson said:
Since agape love treasures that which is inherently valuable, it experiences displeasure in whatever devalues that whch is inherently valuable. So, in the case of creatures, God loves the creature for whatb is inherntly valuable in it, but hates/is displeased with th creature to the degree that it devalues in itself and other creatures that which is inherently valuable. This is why scripture says that God hates sinners, but also says that He loves sinners.

So God's love for the Son cannot be mixed with any displeasure. But His love for creatures can be mixed with some or much displeasure. Even cretaures who are presently totally sold out to devaluing everything God loves, are loved by God for what in them is intrinsically valuable: even if that is merely the repressed potential remaining in them by design to repent and begin to grow toward love and goodness.



The agape of God in Christ has been demonstrated in His suffering of life death and resurrection of Christ for us while we were yet sinners. Since we are all made in God's image, there will always remain some inherently valuable aspects of ourselves for God to love, and to prompt God to want us to reconcile with Him. There is nothing that can fully expunge the image of God from us and make God stop valuing/agapeing us for what is intrinsically valuable that remains in us. This is what the love of God in Christ Jesus, demonstrated by His ministry, assure us of.

How does this answer my question?

PaulThomson said:
Since agape love treasures that which is inherently valuable, it experiences displeasure in whatever devalues that whch is inherently valuable. So, in the case of creatures, God loves the creature for whatb is inherntly valuable in it, but hates/is displeased with th creature to the degree that it devalues in itself and other creatures that which is inherently valuable. This is why scripture says that God hates sinners, but also says that He loves sinners.

So God's love for the Son cannot be mixed with any displeasure. But His love for creatures can be mixed with some or much displeasure. Even cretaures who are presently totally sold out to devaluing everything God loves, are loved by God for what in them is intrinsically valuable: even if that is merely the repressed potential remaining in them by design to repent and begin to grow toward love and goodness.



Well, we are told that when Christ returns his saints will descend with Him -
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

And He will reign with them on the earth for one thousand years -

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And we are told that after that, the heavens and earth will be dissolved on fervent heat -

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

And a new heaven and a new earth will be created and the heavenly city will descend onto that earth -

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God...
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And men will live there in the light of God's presence.

Rev.21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

None of that tells us to expect to be living in heaven, not on earth, for eternity.

All this presupposes that agape love is based on merit or value on the recipient of the love. Where did you get your definition?

No?

After Earth is dissolved a new heaven and a new earth will be created and the heavenly city will descend onto that earth .

Yes.
After Earth is dissolved a new heaven and a new earth will be created and the heavenly city will descend onto that earth .

Yes,I read and repeated that passage except.

Nothing you have yet posted proves your prior claim.

Huh? And what kind of love would that be? Would it be "agape" style love, as PT suggested?

Re your last paragraph: Been there, done that -- most especially with Jn 3:16! What you and many others don't understand (or don't want to understand) is that the ancient Hebrews NEVER thought of themselves as being part of the world -- as being just another nation among many other nations. And what is so ironic here is that the writings of John the apostle bears this truth out. Look very closely, for example, at 1Jn 2:2 in which he isolates his primary audience (messianic Jews) from the world. He did not include his original audience in with the "whole world". In part "b" of the text it starts with ....BUT which denotes a contrast. John clearly did not include his original readership in with the "whole world". He could have. He could have written it much differently. He could have said something along the lines of, "He atoned for our sins and the sins of the rest of the world." Or he could have said, "He atoned for our sins and for the sins of all the other nations."

Then you have a second problem with Jn 3:16, since you think "world" means everyone in the distributive sense. The problem is found in the very next verse that states in part, "...but to [actually, really, truly] SAVE the world through Him." So...if the "world" in v.16 must be understood in the distributive sense, then for you to be consistent with yourself, so should it be also in v.17. But of course, you will twist v.17 around to say something that isn't in the text! You would have to say something along the lines of that "God sent his Son into the world to offer everyone the opportunity to be saved." Or God sent his Son into the world to save all those of the world who want to be saved", etc.

And this is hardly the end of all the problems associated with your understanding of the "kosmos" in Jn 3:16.

From reading the Bypaths in the Greek New Testament series by Kenneth Wuest. He has a chapter on the distinctions between the four Greek words for love: philos, agapE, eros and storgE. Since it is a love of valuing/treasuring, it may be used in the same context as the other three loves, in contexts where a sense of valuing is involved in those loves.

So, how do you see all those verses fitting with the claim that when a Christian dies they go to live eternally/forever in heaven?

The Christian trusts God. We know Heaven is our future home.

You claim it is not. The onus is on you to prove that. Which you have not done.

That's the first I've ever heard of agape love being based on merit. What scriptures form the basis of his belief?