Understanding God’s election

You mean "hostile to God" is a misapplied text like all the others.

Imagine if you will.........


asserting that God gives man a fallen human nature which prohibits man from believing His own Good News message, does that even make any logical sense .. is God irrational now?

You read far more into what God says people know in Romans 1. The scripture is explicit in what they know...His eternal power and Godhead. That notwithstanding, men can reason further concerning things about God. But knowing things about someone is not the same as knowing someone. Otherwise, I could read a biography about someone and claim to know them. This, of course, is silly. And equating John 17 to Romans 1 is equally silly. This would mean something that is true of every individual is being spoken of in John 17. Essentially, by equating the 2, you are confering eternal life universally. I find it difficult to believe you believe this. Do you?

Yes that last sentance is exactly it . With the bible if you start with a wrong idea what happens is you start trying to make certain scriptures for your idea and then you have to reject many many more that are telling you your idea was wrong

to simplify if I do t lay downs solid foundation my house is going to fall at some point t if I build on a faulty foundation made of paper bricks the real ones will crush it

And the Greek and gendered language does not support "saving faith" is a gift.

And faith is not synergy, it is the condition set by a sovereign God. It is all through scripture.

Case closed.
There is no argument, there is no Calvinism in the Bible.

The only thing that matters in this entire discussion/argument is that saving faith is not a gift.

All of Calvinism hinges on this premise which is easily disputed.

They just want to spin you around and around but notice they cannot deal with this one point honestly.

Yes, only on Calvinism is listening a special skill miraculously given to some and withheld from most.

Actually, I'm reading out from Romans 1 and simply posting what it says using the words it uses.

I don't think you can show me one point I posted about it that you can refute from those Scriptures. But I'll interact with a respectful and competent attempt.

The plain fact is that men know God sufficiently to have no excuse for not seeing the value of retaining Him in their knowledge and working against Him in a way that attempts to refute His wrath against sin and thus the need for His Salvation from His wrath in His Son whom He sent to provide it.

Actually, I was relating John17:3 to John5:24 which both speak of eternal life and draw together the concept of knowing God and believing God relating both to eternal life.

Then the problem for your comments is that John17:3 and Rom1:21 both use the same word for knowing God.

Then the problem for your comments is that the difference between John17:3 and Rom1:21 is knowing Jesus Christ, so, no, you're creating an allegation of universality by not thinking this through and not seeing some of the same words being used.

I believe everything I'm posting out from Scripture.

I think the @GWH comment was astute and from what I've seen, he has put some thought into such statements.

Thanks for the discussion.

I do think the object of our faith being God and His Son is vital to any discussion of faith. I doubt you disagree with this.

The whole faith as a gift debate is overblown as are most of these things, IMO. Again, IMO some of these issues are well into the realm of semantics and some critical thinking.

Simplified Example: From the Text I believe men created in God's likeness have the God endowed ability to choose and to believe. The mental faculty of belief requires content to believe. God gave us the faculty and God gave us the content.

Based upon the same concept I'm discussing with @Cameron143 re: comments by @GWH there is a string of explanation in Scripture that once understood can be condensed.

If I wring out many Scriptures re: faith (in the sense of belief that Jesus is YHWH's Christ) then in one sense I can say faith is a gift. Jesus is God's gift and every bit of content we need to believe in Him was given to us by God. So, in effect, it could be said that we were given faith (which can also mean what is believed and there is Scripture that speaks of The Faith - what is believed - the Gospel - being handed down to God's Holy Ones) because we were given what to believe.

On the other hand, some being given faith - the faculty of faith - the ability to believe - so some can believe in Jesus Christ as the C's theorize so strongly IMO is simply not Biblical. And it all goes back to the house of cards one of you mentioned. IMO the first domino that needs to fall is the T that says fallen men have zero ability to believe.

I usually don't get into this very much because the arguments get way too intense. But faith in Scripture is written in both senses of believing and what is believed.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[2Pe 1:3 KJV] 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

[2Pe 1:1 ESV] 1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

[2Pe 1:3 ESV] 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,

It’s mind boggling sometimes the loops and ladders and pits and snares and it’s terribly sad to see

“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God offers man salvation it’s an invitation but some turn him away because they want the world

There’s a parable or two that are about the wedding supper invite for the kings son , several turn his invite away because they have other things to do or they have other possessions to tend to . He invited them again but they still turn him away and basically say “ sorry we can’t make it to the supper “ so he then finally just says go invite everyone else so my banquet is full. The ones I had chosen and invited declined and are t worthy of it.

It’s really an important parable

[2Th 2:13-14 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I already did in post #11,177, but Cam's part in the body is the stiff neck and his gift is singing off key in God's choir.

ESV 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

The first thing to ask here is whether [a] faith is the mental capacity and ability to believe, or whether it's the content of what to believe and all the things that God has given based upon that content.

• A faith of equal standing with Peter & others (Jews, Apostles, ???)
  • All things that pertain to life and godliness through God's knowledge
  • Precious and great promises
    • So, through them we could partake of the divine nature

ESV 1 Timothy 4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and(meaning) of the good doctrine/teaching that you have followed.

I know what some want this to mean. But what does it actually mean? There are several Scriptures like 1Tim4:6

ESV Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our/the faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

ESV Jude 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

When all this plays out the faith and all that is included in it for Christians is basically the finished Gospel (from Jesus Christ) and all the instruction in the NC epistles of what we've been given in Christ in Spirit. IMO Peter is saying this faith - the full scope of all that's in the NC Writings - with all of its grace and privileges has been received by Jews and Gentiles without racial or class distinctions. The faith needs to be received in faith.

Yea single verse theology is a hard one . he’s talking about this group in one person , the elect one

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pauls talking to this group in the body of Christ the chosen one

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

like that post says Jesus is the chosen and elect one , the seed of Abraham . We as individuals were not chosen those who believe and are baptized into Christ become the children of God in the chosen one

totally different than God choosing certain individuals for salvation and excluding other individuals from salvation apart from thier own Will and deeds lol

This is the truth of who God will accept and whether he has a chosen special group

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all that word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

…….And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word….. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-37, 42-44, 48‬ ‭

Like cain was told if we will turn fro sin and to God and do what’s right we’ll be accepted but to pretend we’re chosen before we ever hear and believe the gospel our own self and it’s one eta ke regardless of actions ect ect that’s not the case

christ is the chosen one everyone else has to here and believe the gospel in order to be saved and be in his body who is the chosen one

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( that’s who can be saved )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;( that’s who will be saved not who already was but who shall be as a result of the gospel )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( that’s who won’t be saved as a result of hearing and rejecting gospel )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15

sits odd tbat God repeatedly says people will be judged according to thier own words and deeds but then “the real truth “ is they were just chosen or not …..

I already answered this in an earlier post. You are speculation on a definition of chosen, one that i demonstrated earlier

"faith needs to be received in faith" - seems a logical contradiction. Where does the faith that allows faith to be received in faith,
come from? Not to be rude but I'm having difficulty generally grasping your points above. I'm hearing things being mentioned there but not how they come to be accepted and believed in one's spiritual heart as truth - faith must be first be present, given by God as a prerequisite, to permit that to occur and that happens only through salvation.

True faith (for those to whom it is given), is by Christ's righteousness as a gift to those born-again - but it is a result, not cause, nor dependent upon man in any way to establish, hence, the "OBTAINED like precious faith THROUGH the righteousness of God...." below - and the manner by which it is obtained was my point - that it is given by God only but as a gift.

" to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: "

Keep my words intact and there is no logical contradiction. The content needs to be received in faith. We need to believe the faith/content that Jesus Christ founded and perfected/completed and handed down to us.

You've picked up some erroneous concepts along your path. As long as you hold tight to those, we are speaking a different language.

The ability to believe truth is present in fallen men. God gives the content/message to believe = God give the faith/doctrine/Good News to believe. Men hear & learn and believe > Men are saved = become Christians. Short version.

They received the same Gospel (the Faith - the NC content) with all of its same promises and privileges.

Nope, Eddie, NC chosen is different than OC chosen. For the NC, God unilaterally did all of the choosing, man did not and could not contribute to it.