Why do some people believe and some do not?

Love it. We can add in ~~double speak~~Lies of omission~~Changing word standards~~.......But "philosophical chaos bombs" Rules the day!!!!!....I love the patent on it. They sure have it!

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

I forgot this verse or another one you're thinking about?:

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; (Rom. 1:28 NKJ)

NKJ Romans 1:21 because, although they knew (ginōskō) God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

NKJ John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know (ginōskō) You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I ain't good with words .....But spot on.

The calvies have a small definition of sovereignty . He is Soveriegn over a CREATED Soveriegn being. He willingly wants us to willingly give up our will and "match His will"..........Relationship. We start miles apart and He wants us and guides us to match wills.

Using YLT can be very useful in a tight spot.

"God gave them up"

God gave up on them.
Calvinites need to know that hardening is a passive situation. And it is inherently interactive.
And what happens when Life turns His back and walks away........?

Instead they demand that it is God Who intentionally plants evil in the heart to begin with.
All of it plotted and devised before they were ever born.

Certainly good enough to get your point across!

Another point clearly made. Agree.

This verse explains it very well. People did not like to retain or keep God in their knowledge so God placed them under the condition of having a reprobate mind.

But it's clear people did it to themselves by continually rejecting God.

The burning question is:
Has God given up on the Calvinites?

I mean all of this Biblical light being shed and.........ppfffffttttttt.
I don't see a buckets of tearful repentance that's for sure.

Meaning i.e. it happens as men disobey? Or?

I think I see it as active and passive - Pharoah hardened his heart & God hardened Pharoah's heart. But even in this it's actually active because God is providing the opportunities for Pharoah to reject.

Am I misunderstanding you?

Instead they demand that it is God Who ACTIVELY plants evil in the heart to begin with.

With God its always a positive. It's always salvation.
The subtleties of the Hebraisms need to be considered here.

He is long suffering. Not in their theology, but He is.

Ok. Thanks. And what are all the different meanings for the word?

Good. I kind of see it as the ultimate, 'you made your bed, now sleep in it" type of instruction. There's simply a point of rejection that He's had enough, so to speak.

I am convinced that the hardening per se certainly is passive.

However the consequences of the hardening ARE NOT passive they are many times active.

Like the flood for example. Or the destruction of Sodom and Jericho.
God intervenes when people totally go to seed and things get really nasty. He has to to save the righteous.

And it's going to happen in the tribulation the same way.

Always. Always. God is benevolent. calvies god is malevolent.

I think that in His omniscience He understands and realizes that it's beyond the point of no return.

See Exodus 3:19.

I'll give you the rather lengthy BDAG lexical reference and highlight for you where it shows our 2 verses under the same definition in 1.b:


Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] γινώσκω
• γινώσκω (in the form γιγνώσκω [s. below] since Homer; γιν. in Attic ins in Meisterhans3-Schw. index, from 325 BC; in pap fr. 277 BC [Mayser 165]; likew. LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph., apolog.) impf. ἐγίνωσκον; fut. γνώσομαι; 2 aor. ἔγνων, impv. γνῶθι, γνώτω, subj. 1 sg. γνῶ and 3 sg. γνῶ (γνοῖ Mk 5:43; 9:30; Lk 19:15; Hm 4, 1, 5; B-D-F §95, 2; W-S. §13, 22; Mlt-H. 83; Rob. 1214); 2 sg. γνώσῃς (TestAbr A 8 p. 86, 5 [Stone p. 20]); opt. 1 sg. γνῴην; 3 sg. γνοίη Job 23:3, 5; inf. γνῶναι, ptc. γνούς; pf. ἔγνωκα, 3 pl. ἔγνωκαν J 17:7 (W-S. §13, 15 n. 15); plpf. ἐγνώκειν. Pass.: 1 fut. γνωσθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐγνώσθην; pf. ἔγνωσμαι. (On the spellings γινώσκειν and γιγνώσκειν s. W-S. §5, 31; B-D-F §34, 4; Mlt-H. 108.) This verb is variously nuanced in contexts relating to familiarity acquired through experience or association with pers. or thing.

1. to arrive at a knowledge of someone or someth., know, know about, make acquaintance of

a. w. acc. of thing: mysteries (Wsd 2:22; En 104:12) Mt 13:11; Mk 4:11 v.l.; Lk 8:10; will of the Master (Just., D. 123, 4) 12:47f; that which brings peace 19:42; truth (Jos., Ant. 13, 291) J 8:32; times Ac 1:7; sin Ro 7:7; affection 2 Cor 2:4; spirit of truth J 14:17; way of righteousness 2 Pt 2:21 P72; God’s glory 1 Cl 61:1.—Abs. γνόντες (Is 26:11) when they had ascertained it Mk 6:38; ἐκ μέρους γ. know fragmentarily, only in part 1 Cor 13:9, 12.—W. prep. γ. τι ἔκ τινος (X., Cyr. 1, 6, 45; Jos., Vi. 364) know a thing by someth. (Diod. S. 17, 101, 6): a tree by its fruit Mt 12:33; Lk 6:44; 1J 4:6; γ. τι ἔν τινι (Sir 4:24; 26:9) 1J 4:2. Also γ. τι κατά τι (Gen 15:8): κατὰ τί γνώσομαι τοῦτο; by what (=how) shall I know this? Lk 1:18.

b. w. personal obj. (Plut., Mor. 69c ἄνδρα τοιοῦτον οὐκ ἔγνωμεν; Did., Gen. 45, 24 evil powers): God (Ael. Aristid. 52, 2 K.=28 p. 551 D.: γ. τὸν θεόν; Herm. Wr. 1, 3; 10, 19a; Sallust. 18, 3 p. 34, 9 θεούς; 1 Km 2:10; 3:7; 1 Ch 28:9; 3 Macc 7:6; PsSol 2:31; Da 11:32 Theod.; Philo, Ebr. 45; Ar. 15, 3; Just., D. 14, 12; Orig., C. Cels. 6, 66, 26f) J 14:7ab; 17:3, 25; Ro 1:21; Gal 4:9; 1J 2:3, 13; 3:1, 6; 4:6ff; 5:20 (for 1J s. M-EBoismard, RB 56, ’49, 365-91); PtK 2. Jesus Christ J 14:7; 17:3; 2 Cor 5:16 e*ven though we have known Christ [irrealis, ‘contrary to fact’, is also prob.=even if we had known; cp. Gal 5:11], we now no longer know him; on this pass. s. κατά B7a; σάρξ 5); 1J 2:3f (Just., D. 28, 3). τινὰ ἔν τινι someone by someth. (Ps 47:4; Sir 11:28; TestNapht 3:4) Lk 24:35.

c. w. ὅτι foll. (BGU 824, 8; Philo, Det. Pot. Ins. 22) Mt 25:24; J 6:69; 7:26; 8:52; 14:20, 31; 17:7f, 25; 19:4. W. ὅθεν preceding by this one knows (EpJer 22) 1J 2:18. ἐν τούτῳ (Gen 42:33; Ex 7:17; Josh 3:10 al.) J 13:35; 1J 2:3, 5; 4:13; 5:2. W. combination of two constr. ἐν τούτῳ γινώσκομεν ὅτι μένει ἐν ἡμῖν, ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος by this we know that (Jesus Christ) remains in us, namely by the spirit 3:24; cp. 4:13. W. an indir. question foll. (1 Km 14:38: 25:17; 2 Km 18:29; Ps 38:5) Mt 12:7; J 7:51. W. combination of two questions (double interrogative) ἵνα γνοῖ τίς τί διεπραγματεύσατο that he might know what each one had gained in his dealings Lk 19:15.

2. to acquire information through some means, learn (of), ascertain, find out

a. w. acc. as obj. (1 Km 21:3; 1 Ch 21:2; 4 Macc 4:4) τοῦτο (1 Km 20:3) Mk 5:43. τὰ γενόμενα what has happened Lk 24:18. τὸ ἀσφαλές Ac 21:34; 22:30. τὰ περὶ ἡμῶν our situation Col 4:8; your faith 1 Th 3:5. Pass. become known to someone w. or without dat. of the pers. who is informed: of secret things Mt 10:26; Lk 8:17; 12:2. Of plots Ac 9:24 (cp. 1 Macc 6:3; 7:3, 30 al.).

b. w. ὅτι foll. (PGiss 11, 4 [118 AD] γεινώσκειν σε θέλω ὅτι; 1 Esdr 2:17; Ruth 3:14) J 4:1; 5:6; 12:9; Ac 24:11 v.l.

c. abs. (1 Km 14:29; 3 Km 1:11; Tob 8:12 al.) μηδεὶς γινωσκέτω nobody is to know of this Mt 9:30. ἵνα τις γνοῖ that anyone should obtain knowledge of it Mk 9:30.

d. γ. ἀπό τινος ascertain fr. someone 15:45.

3. to grasp the significance or meaning of someth., understand, comprehend

a. w. acc. foll. (Sir 1:6; 18:28; Wsd 5:7 v.l.; 9:13; Bar 3:9 al.; Just., A I, 63, 5; D. 68, 1 σκληροκάρδιοι πρὸς τὸ γνῶναι νοῦν … τοῦ θεοῦ): parables Mk 4:13; what was said Lk 18:34; (w. ἀναγινώσκειν in wordplay) Ac 8:30. ταῦτα J 3:10; 12:16; what one says J 8:43; God’s wisdom 1 Cor 2:8; the nature of God vs. 11; the nature of the divine spirit vs. 14; the love of Christ Eph 3:19 (s. γνῶσις 1); God’s ways Hb 3:10 (Ps 94:10); τὸν νόμον know the law J 7:49; Ro 7:1 (here perh.=have the law at one’s fingertips, cp. Menand., Sicyonius 138f, τῶν τοὺς νόμους εἰδότων; Just., D. 123, 2). πῶς οὖν [ταῦτα γιγν]ώëσκομεν; how then shall we know these things? Ox 1081, 25f (=SJCh 90, 1f), as read by Till p. 220 app.

b. abs. Mt 24:39.

c. w. ὅτι foll. (Wsd 10:12; EpJer 64; 1 Macc 6:13; 7:42; 2 Macc 7:28 al.) Mt 21:45; 24:32; Mk 12:12; 13:28f; Lk 21:30f; J 4:53; 8:27f; 2 Cor 13:6; Js 2:20.

d. w. indir. question foll. (Job 19:29) J 10:6; 13:12, 28.

CONT'D

CONT'D

4. to be aware of someth., perceive, notice, realize

a. w. acc.: their wickedness Mt 22:18; γ. δύναμιν ἐξεληλυθυῖαν that power had gone out Lk 8:46 (on the constr. w. the ptc. cp. PHamb 27, 13 [III BC]; BGU 1078 [I AD] γίνωσκε ἡγεμόνα εἰσεληλυθότα; POxy 1118, 7; Jos., Ant. 17, 342; Just., D. 39, 2 al.).

b. abs. (Ex 22:9; 1 Km 26:12) Mt 16:8; 26:10; Mk 7:24; 8:17.

c. w. ὅτι foll. (Gen 3:7; 8:11; 1 Macc 1:5 al.): ἔγνω τῷ σώματι ὅτι ἴαται she felt in her body that she was healed Mk 5:29; cp. 15:10; J 6:15; 16:19; Ac 23:6.

5. to have sexual intercourse with, have sex/marital relations with, euphemistic ext. of 1 (Menand., fgm. 558, 5 Kock; Heraclid. Lembus, Pol. 64 [Aristot., Fgm. ed. VRose 1886, 383]; oft. in Plut. and other later authors, and LXX [Anz 306]) w. acc., said of a man as agent (Gen 4:1, 17; 1 Km 1:19; Jdth 16:22; ApcMos 4; Did., Gen. 143, 9) Mt 1:25 (in connection w. the topic of 1:25f see Plut., Mor. 717e; Olympiodorus, Vi. Plat. 1 [Westermann, 1850]: φάσμα Ἀπολλωνιακὸν συνεγένετο τῇ μητρὶ αὐτοῦ τῇ Περικτιόνῃ καὶ ἐν νυκτὶ φανὲν τῷ Ἀρίστωνι ἐκέλευσεν αὐτῷ μὴ μιγνύναι τῇ Περικτιόνῃ μέχρι τ. χρόνου τῆς ἀποτέξεως. Ὁ δ᾽ οὕτω πεποίηκεν: ‘an apparition of Apollo had relations with [Plato’s] mother Perictione, and in a nocturnal appearance to Ariston [Plato's father] ordered him not to have intercourse w. P. until the time of her parturition. So he acted accordingly.’—The legend of Plato’s birth is traceable to Plato’s nephew Speusippus [Diog. L. 3:2; Jerome, Adv. Iovin. 1, 42]); of a woman (Judg 11:39; 21:12; Theodor. Prodr. 9, 486 H.) Lk 1:34 (DHaugg, D. erste bibl. Marienwort ’38; FGrant, JBL 59, ’40, 19f; HSahlin, D. Messias u. d. Gottesvolk, ’45, 117-20).

6. to have come to the knowledge of, have come to know, know (Nägeli 40 w. exx.)

a. w. acc.

α. of thing (Bar 3:20, 23; Jdth 8:29; Bel 35; Just., D. 110, 1 καὶ τοῦτο γ.): τὴν ποσότητα 1 Cl 35:3; hearts (Ps 43:22) Lk 16:15; will Ro 2:18; truth (Just., D. 139, 5; Tat. 13, 1) 2J 1; 2 Cor 5:21; grace 8:9; πάντα (2 Km 14:20; Just., D. 127, 2) 1J 3:20. τὶ 1 Cor 8:2a. W. object clause preceding: ὃ κατεργάζομαι οὐ γ. what I am accomplishing I really do not know Ro 7:15 (here γ. almost=desire, want, decide [Polyb. 5, 82, 1; Plut., Lycurg. 41[3, 9] ἔγνω φυγεῖν; Appian, Syr. 5 §18; Arrian, Anab. 2, 21, 8; 2, 25, 8; Paradox. Vat. 46 Keller ὅ τι ἂν γνῶσιν αἱ γυναῖκες; Jos., Ant. 1, 195; 14, 352; 16, 331]; mngs. 3 understand and 7 recognize are also prob.). W. attraction of the relative ἐν ὥρᾳ ᾗ οὐ γ. at an hour unknown to him Mt 24:50; Lk 12:46. W. acc. and ptc. (on the constr. s. 4a above) τὴν πόλιν νεωκόρον οὖσαν that the city is guardian of the temple Ac 19:35.

β. of pers. know someone (Tob 5:2; 7:4; Is 1:3) J 1:48; 2:24; 10:14f, 27; Ac 19:15; 2 Ti 2:19 (Num 16:5); Ox 1 recto, 14 (GTh 31). W. acc. and ptc. (s. α above, end and e.g. Just., A I, 19, 6) Hb 13:23.

b. w. acc. and inf. (Da 4:17; Just., D. 130, 2 al.) Hb 10:34.

c. w. ὅτι foll. (Sir 23:19; Bar 2:30; Tob 3:14) J 21:17; Ac 20:34; Phil 1:12; Js 1:3; 2 Pt 1:20; 3:3; γ. τοὺς διαλογισμοὺς ὅτι εἰσὶν μάταιοι he knows that the thoughts are vain 1 Cor 3:20 (Ps 93:11).—Oft. γινώσκετε, ὅτι you may be quite sure that Mt 24:33, 43; Mk 13:28f; Lk 10:11; 12:39; 21:31; J 15:18; 1J 2:29 (cp. UPZ 62, 32 [161 BC] γίνωσκε σαφῶς ὅτι πρός σε οὐ μὴ ἐπέλθω; 70, 14; 3 Macc 7:9; Judg 4:9; Job 36:5; Pr 24:12). In τοῦτο ἴστε γινώσκοντες, ὅτι Eph 5:5 the question is whether the two verbs are to be separated or not. In the latter case, one could point to Sym. Jer 49:22 ἴστε γινώσκοντες and 1 Km 20:3.

d. w. indir. question (Gen 21:26; 1 Km 22:3; Eccl 11:5; 2 Macc 14:32; Just., A I, 63, 3 τί πατὴρ καὶ τί υἱός) Lk 7:39; 10:22; J 2:25; 11:57.

e. w. adv. modifier γ. Ἑλληνιστί understand Greek Ac 21:37 (cp. X., Cyr. 7, 5; 31 ἐπίστασθαι Συριστί).

f. abs. (Gen 4:9; 18:21; 4 Km 2:3; Sir 32:8) Lk 2:43. τί ἐγὼ γινώσκω; how should I know? Hs 9, 9, 1.

7. to indicate that one does know, acknowledge, recognize as that which one is or claims to be τινά (Plut., Ages. 597 [3, 1]; Jos., Ant. 5, 112) οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς I have never recognized you Mt 7:23; cp. J 1:10. ἐὰν γνωσθῇ πλέον τ. ἐπισκόπου if he receives more recognition than the supervisor (bishop) IPol 5:2. Of God as subject recognize someone as belonging to God, choose, almost=elect (Am 3:2; Hos 12:1; SibOr 5, 330) 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9. In these pass. the γ. of God directed toward human beings is conceived of as the basis of and condition for their coming to know God; cp. the language of the Pythagoreans in HSchenkl, Wiener Studien 8, 1886 p. 265, no. 9 βούλει γνωσθῆναι θεοῖς· ἀγνοήθητι μάλιστα ἀνθρώποις; p. 277 no. 92 σοφὸς ἄνθρωπος κ. θεὸν σεβόμενος γινώσκεται ὑπὸ τ. θεοῦ; Porphyr., ad Marcellam 13 σοφὸς ἄνθρωπος γινώσκεται ὑπὸ θεοῦ; Herm. Wr. 1, 31 θεός, ὃς γνωσθῆναι βούλεται καὶ γινώσκεται τοῖς ἰδίοις; 10, 15 οὐ γὰρ ἀγνοεῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον ὁ θεός, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ γνωρίζει καὶ θέλει γνωρίζεσθαι. S. Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3 299f; Ltzm. on 1 Cor 8:3; RAC XI 446-659.—On the whole word: BSnell, D. Ausdrücke für die Begriffe des Wissens in d. vorplatonischen Philosophie 1924; EBaumann, ידע u. seine Derivate: ZAW 28, 1908, 22ff; 110ff; WBousset, Gnosis: Pauly-W. VII 1912, 1503ff; Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3 66-70; 284-308; PThomson, ‘Know’ in the NT: Exp. 9th ser. III, 1925, 379-82; AFridrichsen, Gnosis (Paul): ELehmann Festschr. 1927, 85-109; RPope, Faith and Knowledge in Pauline and Johannine Thought: ET 41, 1930, 421-27; RBultmann, TW I ’33, 688-715; HJonas, Gnosis u. spätantiker Geist I ’34; 2’55; EPrucker, Gnosis Theou ’37; JDupont, La Connaissance religieuse dans les Épîtres de Saint Paul, ’49; LBouyer, Gnosis: Le Sens orthodoxe de l’expression jusqu’aux pères Alexandrins: JTS n.s. 4, ’53, 188-203; WDavies, Knowledge in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Mt 11:25-30: HTR 46, ’53, 113-39; WSchmithals, D. Gnosis in Kor. ’55, 3’69; MMagnusson, Der Begriff ‘Verstehen’ e*sp. in Paul), ’55; RCasey, Gnosis, Gnosticism and the NT: CDodd Festschr., ’56, 52-80; IdelaPotterie, οἶδα et γινώσκω (4th Gosp.), Biblica 40, ’59, 709-25; H-JSchoeps, Urgemeinde, Judenchristentum, Gnosis ’56; EKäsemann, Das Wandernde Gottesvolk (Hb)2, ’57; HJonas, The Gnostic Religion, ’58; JDupont, Gnosis, ’60; UWilckens, Weisheit u. Torheit (1 Cor 1 and 2) ’59; DGeorgi, Die Gegner des Pls im 2 Cor, ’64; DScholer, Nag Hammadi Bibliography, 1948-69, ’71.—B. 1209f. DELG s.v. γιγνώσκω. EDNT. M-M. TW. Sv.