Christ is God

“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: ( rome was going to allow Jews to worship still but they changed this a short time later ) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in Matthew 24 this was about to happen so Jesus is preparing them

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: let him which is on the house top not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:15-18, 20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. ( desolation of Jerusalem written of by daniel when it was besieged and destroyed by Roman armies in 70 ad about twenty years or so after this )

Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

( the law and prophets were what had been written when Jesus said this the Old Testament of the Bible was about to be fulfilled on jerusalems as it had been warned for ages )


But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

also mark 13 is another account of Jesus sermon about this matter which we can again see details we can’t otherwise

“But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains: and let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: and let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:11-16, 19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The great tribulation note they appear in heaven in revelation 7

“And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: ( preists ) and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:14-17‬ ‭

we have prophecy about Jesus coming also just as they did but we’re looking for the New Testament prophecies like this one

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is about his retirn which we are waiting for his to appear from heaven just as he went away into heaven he will return

“this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,

shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus hasn’t returned from heaven yet we agree but the Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled with his first coming , there’s alot of prophecy left but it’s in the New Testament doctrines

“And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: ( preists ) and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:14-17‬ ‭

we have prophecy about Jesus coming also just as they did but we’re looking for the New Testament prophecies like this one

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is about his retirn which we are waiting for his to appear from heaven just as he went away into heaven he will return

“this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,

shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus hasn’t returned from heaven yet we agree but the Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled with his first coming , there’s alot of prophecy left but it’s in the New Testament doctrines

“And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7: 14).

It's amazing how often John references the Lamb in the book of revelation. Christ is our all-powerful King, yet He is also our Lamb, who suffered and died for our sins. Those who "came out of the great tribulation" are described as having their robes washed and made "...white in the blood of the Lamb." They will be purified and not have to worry about sin and suffering any longer. It reminds me of the multiple references John makes to the Lamb in chapter 5 of revelation, and I really wanted to get back to the end of this chapter to close the loop on our glimpse into the 3rd heaven that we were discussing earlier in this forum:

Revelation 5:13-14

New King James Version

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and [a]ever!”

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the [b]twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped [c]Him who lives forever and ever.

What a wonderful vision of all creation worshiping the Lamb and expressing blessing, honor, glory, and power to our great God, "...who lives forever and ever." Of course, after this worship of the Lamb described in chapters 4 & 5, chapter 6 starts getting into the seals being opened and the four horseman of the apocalypse being unleashed.

The bottom line for me is, yes, this world is suffering and a great tribulation lies ahead for us as humanity if we don't repent. However, God is the one who is ultimately in control, and Satan and the Beast are limited by the parameters God has set. The end of the story in Revelation is we as believers win thanks to our God and the Lamb who gives us the ultimate victory.

I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts on end time events, brother, and although this world will likely suffer immensely during the tribulation in the future, we have the hope of Jesus' return and a new age under His leadership. Like Paul said in the verse you quoted above from Thessalonians, "...so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4: 17). In a world filled with a lot of misery and death, my hope is having our tears wiped away and death being tossed into the lake of fire, so we can bask ourselves in the love and mercy of God forever.

Did you ever notice God makes a covenant with Abram and he shows him the land of Israel’s inheritance Abraham walks through it touches and sees and owns it .

But then later God makes a second eternal covenant with Abraham giving him a new name and promising him his own seed rather than ishmael

about when he does make the second he invites Abraham to look up into the heavens at the many stars far away and distant shining and majestic how beautiful it must have been with no lights on the plains and hills when he looked up to the far away stars .

Different from the land Abraham couldn’t really understand the stars or walk among them couldn’t touch and really know the details but he believed what god told him when he was looking far-away into the heavens and then God calls him righteous

These are great thoughts, brother, about our father of the faithful, Abraham. What an example he set, and God had a special relationship with him even though Abraham was far from perfect. The best way I've heard the covenant with Abraham described is one of "race and grace."

He was blessed with two great nations and peoples - Israel through Isaac and the Arabic peoples through Ishmael. And, of course, all of us as Christians are related to Abraham through Jesus Christ and His grace.

Sorry for the delayed responses recently. I started a new job that is taking up a lot of my time right now. I'll settle in shortly and get back in the loop with these great discussions. I definitely want to talk a little more about Abraham, especially the NT perspective on him.

sure if you look even further back to Abraham’s relative Noah and his three sons you see the dividing of the nations israel , adopted gentiles who would dwell with Israel , and the cursed who would always be fighting with isreal thier “ brethren “ through ishmael and Hagar

“And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you see here a new covenant made with Noah and his sons from which all people came from one of those three lines of people Shem ham and japeth.

From japeths line came gentiles

“Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭10:1-2, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

From hand line came forth the canaanites

“And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth, and the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭10:6, 15, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And from shems line came Abraham the Hebrew and the nation of isreal.

“Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born. The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram. These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭10:21-22, 31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:10, 26-27‬ ‭

So you have the whole worlds nations divided into three groups based on the blessing and cirse of Noah upon his three sons

“And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. ( ishmaels line )

And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; ( Abraham’s line ) And Canaan shall be his servant.

God shall enlarge Japheth, And he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; ( gentiles would dwell with Abraham’s line in blessing ) And Canaan shall be his servant.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:25-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

three groups of people Abraham’s line , gentiles who would be later joined with Abraham’s line and canaans line would be cursed

That's some good context, Pilgrim, to understand Abraham's family line being traced back to Shem and ultimately Noah. I was looking at what Paul had to say about Abraham as well:

Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father[a] has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.

Paul uses Abraham as an example of the faith and grace focus he covers in chapter 3, especially how we as Christians are "...justified freely by His [God's] grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith..." (Rom. 3: 24-25). We are redeemed from our slavery to sin by the blood of Jesus, who is our bridge to the Mercy Seat where we receive grace and forgiveness.

Paul goes on to ask the questions, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith" (v. 27). We are justified by having "faith in Jesus" (v. 26), not by any feeble works we try to generate by our effort and strength. Faith and grace come from God, and that's what provides our power to produce fruit to the glory of God.

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). Paul uses financial language here to make a point: Abraham's belief "...was accounted to him for righteousness," which comes from God and not by any efforts we attempt to justify our actions and exalt ourselves through self-righteousness. Belief sets the ball rolling in motion for a faith and grace-based relationship with Jesus Christ, our source for Godly righteousness. It's a gift. We can't earn this, and all the credit goes to God.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

( this part about Abraham having righteousness imputed to him )

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-24, 26‬ ‭

I think you just cemented a plan I have in mind, brother, on my next study to do a comparison/contrast on the book of Ecclesiastes and James' epistle. They share some common themes like the importance of diligence and fall into the category of "wisdom literature." As much as I love Luther, I don't share his feelings towards James where he referred to it as an "epistle of straw." I understand he was in a huge conflict with the Catholic church of his time that was works-based and focused on generating as much revenue as possible for Rome. But like we've discussed in the past, I think many in the Church struggle reconciling the law (works) vs. grace (love) concept. It's not a competition between the two - Christ changed all of that with the covenant written in His blood.

The verses you quoted from James are outstanding and build upon Paul's commentary as well. If righteous actions aren't being manifested in our lives as Christ's disciples, then our faith is "dead" or at least dormant. Any "works" we manifest by our own strength are vanity because the focus often is selfish and what we can gain from our effort. Yes, we might "give" and "serve" which are certainly positive attributes, but if our motive is to impress others, seek advancement, desire more attention and material gain, we are missing the point. As you and James note, "faith without works is dead." The works being referred to here and by Paul come through the power of the Holy Spirit generating fruit in our lives, the "work" of God in and through us.

I had to go back and take a look at Abraham's remarkable expression of faith/works in Genesis 22, and I'll need to break this up into a few postings because there are some remarkable insights that fit in nicely with our "Christ is God" focus in this forum (YHWH Yireh - Almighty God our Eternal Provider):

Genesis 22:1-3

New King James Version

Abraham’s Faith Confirmed

22 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”

2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.

God tested Abraham? Why does God need to test any of us if He knows our thoughts and intentions? There are different opinions out there, but I think it has to do with our free will. We're not robots that have been programmed, and we have been given the ability to make choices such as will we obey God or not. That's up to us, and Abraham set an excellent example by not apparently questioning God (at least directly). He said, "Here I am" and did exactly what God directed. I have to be honest and say that has not been my response in my relationship with God always. I'm a lot like Lot, Abraham's nephew, who says "oh, not so my Lord..." to some of God's ideas for me.

It's not like it's a one way relationship where God commands and we listen and obey. That's ideal, of course, like Abraham did because He knows what's best for us. But God is open to our desires and ideas, and He is willing to be flexible like He was with Moses on more than one occasion during their relationship in the wilderness. Nevertheless, I look at the example of faith that Abraham expressed here, and it shows me God has a lot of work to do yet in my stubborn heart to allow His faith to flow through me and follow wherever He leads. I would be saying, "are you crazy God? There is no way I am going to kill my beloved son." Yet, that is exactly what Abraham was willing to do and "rose early in the morning" to carry out what God intended, knowing that God ultimately would manifest His Providence.

Show from scripture that Jesus the Messiah is God.

[HR][/HR]

i'll go first:



The Christ is that Word, who pitched His tent with us, came to His own, but wasn't known by them, who loved me, and gave Himself! He is the Light and the Resurrection and the Life!


[HR][/HR]

OK, your turn! Go!!

so In the end when I stand before the lord ……do I say well lord everything your saying is my fault and judging me for as if I did it ……is just because you didn’t do it through me ?

in the gospel this is a recurring teaching of Jesus to his disciples that believes in him it has nothing to do with works of the law , it’s all about the gospel what Jesus of Nazareth actually taught his followers

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, ( instruction ) and ye shall not be judged:( result if obeyed ) condemn not, ( instruction) and ye shall not be condemned: ( result if obeyed )

forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38, 46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That's a good point, Pilgrim, and I certainly hope I didn't imply that we just sit back and let God do all the work through us. It's a partnership and more importantly a relationship, and relationships become dysfunctional and don't last unless both parties are doing their fair share of the work. I can tell you from first hand experience that the Holy Spirit has worked best in me when I'm praying, studying, fellow-shipping, attending worship service, and finding ways to serve others.

When I become lax on my end by neglecting my part in this relationship, the Holy Spirit is not as effective because I'm not making the effort. That's when old habits and behaviors start creeping back into the equation. That's my fault, not God's. I can't blame Him because He's provided all the tools I need to develop a close relationship with Christ and serve Him, which is the commitment I made when I believed, was baptized, and became a disciple. Salvation is a gift from God, no doubt, yet like you express there are responsibilities I have to follow and obey my Lord as well.

Look at Abraham - he expressed his active faith by taking a three day journey to the mountain the Lord specified to offer his son as a burnt offering. What must have been going through Abraham's mind during the three days? Whatever doubt and dismay he may have been experiencing, there was still hope and faith at work, also:

Genesis 22:4-5

New King James Version

4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the [a]lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.”

From the text we are given, all Abraham knew at this time was that Isaac was going to be sacrificed as a "burnt offering" (v.2). There is no indication up to this point that God was going to provide a substitute. However, Abraham told the young men traveling with them that he and Isaac were going to worship God, "...and we will come back to you." If all Abraham knew at that time was that Isaac was going to be a burnt offering, why would he add that we will come back to you? I think that shows Abraham trusted God and had the faith that God would intervene and reveal His plan for this ordeal, one that allowed both Abraham and Isaac to return safely to their traveling companions.

eventually I realized it’s all that way then I understood why belief is the key

If I believe wrong I’m going to act wrong according to that belief so we need to hear the truth

Amen..."and the truth will set [us] free..."!

Our belief needs to be centered upon Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, and the gospel. And, then it needs to be followed-up with action just like God told the Israelites to move forward through the parting walls of the sea during the Exodus.

Look at how strong Abraham's belief in God was during what had to be a time filled with doubt and despair that he may actually have to thrust the knife into his son:

Genesis 22:6-8

New King James Version

6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together.

7 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the [a]lamb for a burnt offering?”

8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

As far as we know up to this point, there is complete silence from God although the Holy Spirit had to be providing some comfort and strength. And, Abraham still had the belief that "God will provide for Himself the lamb," which is a foreshadowment of the greatest sacrifice to come - the Father sacrificing His only begotten Son for our sins.