Christ is God

[SilverFox7]

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to me it’s going to be as it was in Eden before man rebelled . God and man together again dwelling on earth as a family , a people and life rether than staying into death revelations a really interesting book in my view

You did a great job laying this out, brother, and I like your thoughts on this topic. Yes, Eden will be reestablished and the tree of life will be available for all to partake of. It will be successful and lasting this time because Satan will not be there, and mankind will have God's spirit dwelling within them to strengthen and inspire them to walk in harmony with their God as He has always desired it to be.

I just finished up reading through the history of Judah and Israel in Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, and it saddened me once again to see how poorly the nation of Israel did overall following God's ways. The Northern tribes fell apart quickly after they separated from Judah, and I don't think they had one good king. They fell into heavy idolatry and were ultimately overrun and taken captive into Assyria. Judah and Benjamin didn't do a whole lot better with only a few kings like Josiah who "...did what was right in the sight of the Lord" (II Chron. 34: 2). They ended up being conquered by the Babylonians and taken captive to Babylon.

As you noted, Ezekiel warned the people of their iniquity, yet most persisted in rebellion. That's been an unfortunate reality of human history down to the present day even among nations who try to pattern their society after Godly values and laws. There is a diligence and faithfulness that eventually degenerates into paganism and materialism that plummets into national failure.

Even the Church struggles with this. Look at the rebukes Christ had for the seven churches he addresses:

Ephesus: left their first love (Rev. 2: 4)

Smyrna: no major corrections

Pergamos: some "hold to the doctrine of Balaam...and Nicolaitans" (Rev. 2: 14-15)

Thyatira: sexual immorality and eating things sacrificed to idols (Rev. 2: 20)

Sardis: they need to hold fast, repent, and avoid being defiled (Rev. 3: 3-4)

Philadelphia: no major corrections

Laodiceans: the worst of the bunch (Rev. 3: 15-19)

We struggle during the "Chruch Era" even though we have God's Spirit and Christ fighting our battles. Yet, we have Satan and his misfits to deal with, the corruption and sinfulness of this world, and our biggest enemy - our sinful nature at battle with God's nature within us.
We certainly need that New Jerusalem, brother!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You did a great job laying this out, brother, and I like your thoughts on this topic. Yes, Eden will be reestablished and the tree of life will be available for all to partake of. It will be successful and lasting this time because Satan will not be there, and mankind will have God's spirit dwelling within them to strengthen and inspire them to walk in harmony with their God as He has always desired it to be.

I just finished up reading through the history of Judah and Israel in Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, and it saddened me once again to see how poorly the nation of Israel did overall following God's ways. The Northern tribes fell apart quickly after they separated from Judah, and I don't think they had one good king. They fell into heavy idolatry and were ultimately overrun and taken captive into Assyria. Judah and Benjamin didn't do a whole lot better with only a few kings like Josiah who "...did what was right in the sight of the Lord" (II Chron. 34: 2). They ended up being conquered by the Babylonians and taken captive to Babylon.

As you noted, Ezekiel warned the people of their iniquity, yet most persisted in rebellion. That's been an unfortunate reality of human history down to the present day even among nations who try to pattern their society after Godly values and laws. There is a diligence and faithfulness that eventually degenerates into paganism and materialism that plummets into national failure.

Even the Church struggles with this. Look at the rebukes Christ had for the seven churches he addresses:

Ephesus: left their first love (Rev. 2: 4)

Smyrna: no major corrections

Pergamos: some "hold to the doctrine of Balaam...and Nicolaitans" (Rev. 2: 14-15)

Thyatira: sexual immorality and eating things sacrificed to idols (Rev. 2: 20)

Sardis: they need to hold fast, repent, and avoid being defiled (Rev. 3: 3-4)

Philadelphia: no major corrections

Laodiceans: the worst of the bunch (Rev. 3: 15-19)

We struggle during the "Chruch Era" even though we have God's Spirit and Christ fighting our battles. Yet, we have Satan and his misfits to deal with, the corruption and sinfulness of this world, and our biggest enemy - our sinful nature at battle with God's nature within us.
We certainly need that New Jerusalem, brother!

Amen great stuff brother !

i feel as if we have lost a lot of the basics and we say it’s faith but the basics are the foundation of faith

It’s almost like mans forgetting what terms like faith mean as if it’s an alternative to a gods ways when it’s actually his way to walk in faith

Many I feel look at faith as an alternative to listening to and believing God but that’s really the opposites of faiths entire existance which is to bring us into obedience and upright living before it’s too late

 

[TheLearner]

rth

 

[wattie]

I've heard from Unitarian and jw types say when Jesus refers to the Father, and in other passages referring to the Father. That it's referring to an unequal..separate being.

What this ignores, is Jesus having the same power as the Father and claiming equality with the Father.

I don't see Jesus as separate from the Father. Distinct from.. but entirely inter related.

 

[SilverFox7]

Amen great stuff brother !

i feel as if we have lost a lot of the basics and we say it’s faith but the basics are the foundation of faith

It’s almost like mans forgetting what terms like faith mean as if it’s an alternative to a gods ways when it’s actually his way to walk in faith

Many I feel look at faith as an alternative to listening to and believing God but that’s really the opposites of faiths entire existance which is to bring us into obedience and upright living before it’s too late

As I was going through the letters to the seven churches, your observation of Christ greeting John in this vision as our High Priest brought me some new insights into the message Jesus had for each of these congregations as Head of the Church. I really like the way Jesus describes Himself to each of the churches:

Ephesus

"...He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who works in the midst of the seven golden lampstands" (Rev 2: 1). Christ is intimately involved with His Church, and we are in His right hand like He sits at the right hand of the Father.

Smyrna

"...the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life" (Rev 2: 8). Christ is eternal, yet He became mortal, suffered and died, and was raised again on the third day. The Eternal tasted death for us.

Pergamos

"...He who has the sharp two-edged sword" (Rev 2: 12). Jesus is the Word of God, spiritually and literally.

Thyatira

"...the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass" (Rev 2: 18). "Christ is God!"

Sardis

"...He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars" (Rev 3: 1). Another reference to Christ as Head of the Church.

Philadelphia

"...He who is holy, He who is true, 'He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens'" (Rev 3: 7). Christ is pure, perfect, and trustworthy. "...He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder, So he shall open, and no one shall shut; and he shall shut, and no one shall open" (Isa 22:22). Christ is King of kings!

Laodicea

"...the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3: 14). Jesus unifies, and we can trust Him implicitly because He is our first hand witness to God and His plan of salvation for us.

 

[SilverFox7]

rth

What does "rth" mean?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

As I was going through the letters to the seven churches, your observation of Christ greeting John in this vision as our High Priest brought me some new insights into the message Jesus had for each of these congregations as Head of the Church. I really like the way Jesus describes Himself to each of the churches:

Ephesus

"...He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who works in the midst of the seven golden lampstands" (Rev 2: 1). Christ is intimately involved with His Church, and we are in His right hand like He sits at the right hand of the Father.

Smyrna

"...the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life" (Rev 2: 8). Christ is eternal, yet He became mortal, suffered and died, and was raised again on the third day. The Eternal tasted death for us.

Pergamos

"...He who has the sharp two-edged sword" (Rev 2: 12). Jesus is the Word of God, spiritually and literally.

Thyatira

"...the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass" (Rev 2: 18). "Christ is God!"

Sardis

"...He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars" (Rev 3: 1). Another reference to Christ as Head of the Church.

Philadelphia

"...He who is holy, He who is true, 'He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens'" (Rev 3: 7). Christ is pure, perfect, and trustworthy. "...He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder, So he shall open, and no one shall shut; and he shall shut, and no one shall open" (Isa 22:22). Christ is King of kings!

Laodicea

"...the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3: 14). Jesus unifies, and we can trust Him implicitly because He is our first hand witness to God and His plan of salvation for us.

amen to all that wonderful stuff .

revelation has so many things about Jesus little connections

I like to trace the phrases back to the origins in the ot it always comes back to a prophecy of Christ

“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:26-27‬ ‭

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:

and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Revelation is an amazing book

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What does "rth" mean?

Do you read a lot of Daniel brother ? It has a structure to it , wheras Daniel sees the same subject matter in several successive visions and dreams but it’s repeatedly telling of the same matters each time having various points of detail that the others don’t have.

this is the same structure as the book of revelation and johns visions, daniels is applicable to the conclusion of the Old Testament and gods recognition of the earth , through and by that agreement made with man , specifically the children of Israel. The reason I’m mentioning this brother is for study purposes revelation , and Daniel really work together for understanding and revelation.

“then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: his body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭10:5-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my Lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength. For how can the servant of this my Lord talk with this my Lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, and said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my Lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭10:16-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Write (1) the things which thou hast seen,

and (2) the things which are,

and (3) the things which shall be hereafter;”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:12-19‬ ‭

of course we understand from the references who this son of man is as believers who died and now is alive forever. And all those references about the sounds of his voice in revelation sometimes thunder a trumpet his face as lightning sometimes it’s the roar of a lion or the sound of many people shouting together ect there are a few others but those are references to prophecy talking about Gods voice. And those prophecies then shed light on what’s happening in the revelation visions

for instance the beast with seven heads can be found in da irks four beasts that rise up from the sea and attacks the saints overpowering them the four kingdoms Daniel sees have the same description as johns one beast with seven heads and ten one that appears again as an eighth with ten companions ect

revelation really ties into all of prophecy like that and even the law and especially gospel all of those otherworldly references are understood from the Bible itself and what it has revealed throughout scriptire and time to man.

It’s really a convincing book that convinces of truth and the state of the earth right now and the imminence of Christs return whether it yet be a thousand years or a day

We can find direct references in Moses writings and the prophets , in Jesus words and the epistles tbat make sense of revelations visions just like we see in daniels framework and design. And especially when we put the two together

“And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[glf]

Jn 1: 1-3, "In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things that were made, were made by Jesus and without Jesus was not anything made that was made."

Heb 1:3-, "Jesus being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high..."

 

[TheLearner]

What does "rth" mean?

read to here

 

[TheLearner]

Do you read a lot of Daniel brother ? It has a structure to it , wheras Daniel sees the same subject matter in several successive visions and dreams but it’s repeatedly telling of the same matters each time having various points of detail that the others don’t have.

this is the same structure as the book of revelation and johns visions, daniels is applicable to the conclusion of the Old Testament and gods recognition of the earth , through and by that agreement made with man , specifically the children of Israel. The reason I’m mentioning this brother is for study purposes revelation , and Daniel really work together for understanding and revelation.

“then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: his body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭10:5-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my Lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength. For how can the servant of this my Lord talk with this my Lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, and said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my Lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭10:16-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Write (1) the things which thou hast seen,

and (2) the things which are,

and (3) the things which shall be hereafter;”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:12-19‬ ‭

of course we understand from the references who this son of man is as believers who died and now is alive forever. And all those references about the sounds of his voice in revelation sometimes thunder a trumpet his face as lightning sometimes it’s the roar of a lion or the sound of many people shouting together ect there are a few others but those are references to prophecy talking about Gods voice. And those prophecies then shed light on what’s happening in the revelation visions

for instance the beast with seven heads can be found in da irks four beasts that rise up from the sea and attacks the saints overpowering them the four kingdoms Daniel sees have the same description as johns one beast with seven heads and ten one that appears again as an eighth with ten companions ect

revelation really ties into all of prophecy like that and even the law and especially gospel all of those otherworldly references are understood from the Bible itself and what it has revealed throughout scriptire and time to man.

It’s really a convincing book that convinces of truth and the state of the earth right now and the imminence of Christs return whether it yet be a thousand years or a day

We can find direct references in Moses writings and the prophets , in Jesus words and the epistles tbat make sense of revelations visions just like we see in daniels framework and design. And especially when we put the two together

“And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Thanks for reading me, Daniel

 

[JaumeJ]

Keep on sharing, Danny.

PS: Daniel means God is Judge....

 

[SilverFox7]

Do you read a lot of Daniel brother ? It has a structure to it , wheras Daniel sees the same subject matter in several successive visions and dreams but it’s repeatedly telling of the same matters each time having various points of detail that the others don’t have.

I haven't dove deeply into Daniel since I was studying prophecy heavily 30 years ago or so. It definitely goes hand-in-hand with Revelation, and Ezekiel is a key prophetic text as well. Of course, the entire Bible is littered with prophetic pieces, and it is a lot of fun trying to put it all together to understand God's plan for humanity. Psalms is an overlooked resource for prophecy as well, and there are a lot of gems woven into the wonderful poetry in that book, too.

I have read through Daniel many times throughout the years as I've worked my way through the Bible (I like to read different translations of the entire Bible every five years or so), but it was more of a big picture view versus diving into the details. There is one verse in the last chapter that seems quite applicable to our times today:

Daniel 12:4

New King James Version

4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Doesn't this describe our world today? People running "to and fro" in cars, ships, trains, and planes. We have some family members who are agnostics, and they are jet setting all over the world every month or so, and they can't seem to sit still. There's always that next place to see with all the exotic food and booze, living a life of "leisure."

And, look at how exponentially knowledge is increasing? I've never seen a time in my life where technology has exploded on the scene and completely transformed our world. I know there's a possibility Jesus will not return for quite some time, but it sure appears to me we are living in the end times, brother. I don't know how we can keep up at this pace as a race for much longer.

 

[JaumeJ]

Back in the day when I could yet see well enough to read, I always had to read Daniel after having read Revelation, or the other way around. The seem to complete each other.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I haven't dove deeply into Daniel since I was studying prophecy heavily 30 years ago or so. It definitely goes hand-in-hand with Revelation, and Ezekiel is a key prophetic text as well. Of course, the entire Bible is littered with prophetic pieces, and it is a lot of fun trying to put it all together to understand God's plan for humanity. Psalms is an overlooked resource for prophecy as well, and there are a lot of gems woven into the wonderful poetry in that book, too.

I have read through Daniel many times throughout the years as I've worked my way through the Bible (I like to read different translations of the entire Bible every five years or so), but it was more of a big picture view versus diving into the details. There is one verse in the last chapter that seems quite applicable to our times today:

Daniel 12:4

New King James Version

4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Doesn't this describe our world today? People running "to and fro" in cars, ships, trains, and planes. We have some family members who are agnostics, and they are jet setting all over the world every month or so, and they can't seem to sit still. There's always that next place to see with all the exotic food and booze, living a life of "leisure."

And, look at how exponentially knowledge is increasing? I've never seen a time in my life where technology has exploded on the scene and completely transformed our world. I know there's a possibility Jesus will not return for quite some time, but it sure appears to me we are living in the end times, brother. I don't know how we can keep up at this pace as a race for much longer.

Amen imagine going from ancient Hebrew culture to the Roman advances in culture and technology in the time of Christ as well

I have wondered if the wise who understand and shine as stars are the early church and apostles.

For instance I look at this as a prophecy about the time of the gospel as he’s speaking specifically about Israel. And thier temple and City

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: ( Jesus was sacrificed for the people )

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;( rome destroyed Jerusalem and it’s temple shortly after ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: let him which is on the house top not come down to take any thing out of his house: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”( great tribulation )
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:15-17, 21‬ ‭

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


of a person lives u see the old covenant the world was governed by it for them recognized through that covenant when the covenant came to an end so did the world that existed under it

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Back in the day when I could yet see well enough to read, I always had to read Daniel after having read Revelation, or the other way around. The seem to complete each other.

Indeed daniel

“And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, ….And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear,…. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, …the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth:…. and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You have four beasts with seven heads and ten horns in daniels vision another of his visions identifies the heads as Babylon , media Persia , then Greece . And then Alexander the greats four generals which gave birth to the Roman Empire which was ruling in johns time the sixth head .

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:

and the dragon ( who has the same appearance seen heads ten horns )gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: ( this head is different he appears two times as if he died and rose again ) and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a time stamp here showing us the progression from Babylon the first head in daniels visions to romes current ruler in johns day the sixth head of the same beast

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( johns past )

and one is, ( johns present )

and the other is not yet come; ( johns future )

and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

“And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The beast that thou sawest was, ( in thier past ) and is not; ( currently ) and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition future retirn ) and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, ( past ) and is not,( present ) and yet is. ( future )

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And the beast that was, and is not, ( a king from the past ) even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”( and his ten royal companions )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:7-8, 10-13‬ ‭


which we first heard about in daniels visions

“And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. ( leaving 8)

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those too books are extra connected or seem that way because of the strictures of both and subject matter daniel was like revelation in the ot applicable to thier covenant end to come

 

[SilverFox7]

Amen imagine going from ancient Hebrew culture to the Roman advances in culture and technology in the time of Christ as well

I have wondered if the wise who understand and shine as stars are the early church and apostles.

Yes, that had to be a startling transition for the Hebrews when the Romans conquered the civilized world and established a government founded on their "pax Romana" (Roman peace) that encompassed the Holy Land as well. Their sophisticated road system made traveling "to and fro" much easier, and they could transport troops to troubled areas swiftly to keep things under control. Knowledge certainly increased at an accelerated rate during this era as well, so I can see where Daniel's prophecy applied to the first century tribulation in Jerusalem as well.

Wisdom comes from God, and stars are a type of the church as well in Revelation, so your theory makes sense. Jesus and the New Covenant He established has transformed our world, but the early Church suffered immense persecution. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 was a horrible time for any who were viewed as being in rebellion to Roman occupation. Daniel's prophecy certainly relates to what Jesus covered during the Olivet prophecy, and there are some who believe Jesus did return at that time. There is no evidence of that historically, and there isn't any records from the Church fathers that the following happened:

Matthew 24:29-30

New King James Version

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Most scholars believe Revelation was composed around AD 90 after the destruction of Jerusalem. So the "great tribulation" and events described in Revelation are pointing towards a future event that will encompass the entire world. It appears there is "duality" in both Daniel and what Jesus described on the Mount of Olives - one that was localized in Palestine and the next great tribulation that the entire earth will suffer prior to Christ's second coming.

I do like your point that the world came to an end under the Old Covenant, and a new world came into existence under the New Covenant. It wasn't too long after Christ ascended into heaven that the temple and their ritual system was destroyed. And, it has never been re-implemented on a national level in Israel although there is a movement to build a third temple in Jerusalem in the coming years (I don't see this materializing). The temple and all the rituals associated with it are obsolete under the New Covenant. Christ is our Lamb of God who makes forgiveness and reconciliation with God possible, giving us direct access to the Holy of Holies where we can present our prayers before the Father.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, that had to be a startling transition for the Hebrews when the Romans conquered the civilized world and established a government founded on their "pax Romana" (Roman peace) that encompassed the Holy Land as well. Their sophisticated road system made traveling "to and fro" much easier, and they could transport troops to troubled areas swiftly to keep things under control. Knowledge certainly increased at an accelerated rate during this era as well, so I can see where Daniel's prophecy applied to the first century tribulation in Jerusalem as well.

Wisdom comes from God, and stars are a type of the church as well in Revelation, so your theory makes sense. Jesus and the New Covenant He established has transformed our world, but the early Church suffered immense persecution. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 was a horrible time for any who were viewed as being in rebellion to Roman occupation. Daniel's prophecy certainly relates to what Jesus covered during the Olivet prophecy, and there are some who believe Jesus did return at that time. There is no evidence of that historically, and there isn't any records from the Church fathers that the following happened:

Matthew 24:29-30

New King James Version

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Most scholars believe Revelation was composed around AD 90 after the destruction of Jerusalem. So the "great tribulation" and events described in Revelation are pointing towards a future event that will encompass the entire world. It appears there is "duality" in both Daniel and what Jesus described on the Mount of Olives - one that was localized in Palestine and the next great tribulation that the entire earth will suffer prior to Christ's second coming.

I do like your point that the world came to an end under the Old Covenant, and a new world came into existence under the New Covenant. It wasn't too long after Christ ascended into heaven that the temple and their ritual system was destroyed. And, it has never been re-implemented on a national level in Israel although there is a movement to build a third temple in Jerusalem in the coming years (I don't see this materializing). The temple and all the rituals associated with it are obsolete under the New Covenant. Christ is our Lamb of God who makes forgiveness and reconciliation with God possible, giving us direct access to the Holy of Holies where we can present our prayers before the Father.

Yes some think revelation is written appx 90 ad others think 69-65 ad . There’s much more to it however regarding the beast with seven heads and ten horns

In Matthew 24 Jesus soecifically is talking about the desolation Daniel wrote of happening in that generation when Jerusalem was besieged but if you notice they ask how a two fold question

1 when will the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple happen ? And 2 what are the signs of the end of the world and your coming ?

Jesus tells them the temple buildings will all be destroyed and they ask him two questions

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, (1) Tell us, when shall these things be?( Jerusalems destruction )

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭

this is referencing both the end of Jerusalems covenant and fulfilment of what’s written in the ot . But also it’s foretelling his return from heaven at the end of the world . It’s sort of conflated Matthew 24 is telling if the immediate future in jeruswlem and also the long distant future when he’ll return

By looking at the contemporary accounts like luke 21 we can see him seperating two time periods of a long time away future and also a bear closer future

“Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. ( that’s gonna happen hes saying but before all that happens )

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:10-12, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now he’s zooming in on what they will face in short time before the end of the world and all of the far away things at the end of the world and so you see what happened to then after he left being foretold

“And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: ( Jewish dispersia after its destruction by Rome ) and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:16-24‬ ‭

Jesus was telling them thier immediate future the end of thier covenant with the prophets wrath falling upon them such as daniels abomination of desolation of Jerusalem

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: ( Jesus was rejected and crucified for the people) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; ( Thisnos why Jesus is starting by telling them the temple and city will be destroyed )

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is telling them to get ready for daniels abomination of desolation when they rejected and killed thier king and savior this is what left them desolate And caused God to destroy thier cory and sanctuary

remember Matthew was addressing this

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you look at daniels four beasts and his explainations of who they are Babylon media Persia , Greece ( which so put into four powers after slaw and we the greats death ) and those four powers formed the Roman Empire which was ruling in johns day the point is Daniel sees the vision of the beast 700 years before John there’s a time stamp to show that isa the beginning and then ending of the same vision

John is seeing his vision after five of the heads of the beast had already ruled and fallen Babylon media Persia Greece and two of the generals had given power and consolidated the Roman Empire under the rule of Titus and then nero was soon to arise who oversaw the massive slaughter of Christian’s and Jews . Who claimed to be god , who spared christiansa only my when they rejected Jesus christ and worshipped him as god

then the Jews were dispersed into all nations by rome until recently after the wars when they began returning to thier patchwork homeland forced and re created by the nations after the war as a solution for the “ Jewish refugee problem “

each testement has its own prophecy to be fulfilled at the appointed times is what I’m saying Jerusalems destruction was the fulfillment of the curse for breaking the old covenant . The new covenant has oroohecy about when the messiah will come just as the ot had prophecy of when he would come to Jerusalem and stand on the Mount of olives

were in the new covenwnt so we want to look for what the apostles and Jesus foretold for our future and not the immediate future of Jerusalem

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, that had to be a startling transition for the Hebrews when the Romans conquered the civilized world and established a government founded on their "pax Romana" (Roman peace) that encompassed the Holy Land as well. Their sophisticated road system made traveling "to and fro" much easier, and they could transport troops to troubled areas swiftly to keep things under control. Knowledge certainly increased at an accelerated rate during this era as well, so I can see where Daniel's prophecy applied to the first century tribulation in Jerusalem as well.

Wisdom comes from God, and stars are a type of the church as well in Revelation, so your theory makes sense. Jesus and the New Covenant He established has transformed our world, but the early Church suffered immense persecution. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 was a horrible time for any who were viewed as being in rebellion to Roman occupation. Daniel's prophecy certainly relates to what Jesus covered during the Olivet prophecy, and there are some who believe Jesus did return at that time. There is no evidence of that historically, and there isn't any records from the Church fathers that the following happened:

Matthew 24:29-30

New King James Version

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Most scholars believe Revelation was composed around AD 90 after the destruction of Jerusalem. So the "great tribulation" and events described in Revelation are pointing towards a future event that will encompass the entire world. It appears there is "duality" in both Daniel and what Jesus described on the Mount of Olives - one that was localized in Palestine and the next great tribulation that the entire earth will suffer prior to Christ's second coming.

I do like your point that the world came to an end under the Old Covenant, and a new world came into existence under the New Covenant. It wasn't too long after Christ ascended into heaven that the temple and their ritual system was destroyed. And, it has never been re-implemented on a national level in Israel although there is a movement to build a third temple in Jerusalem in the coming years (I don't see this materializing). The temple and all the rituals associated with it are obsolete under the New Covenant. Christ is our Lamb of God who makes forgiveness and reconciliation with God possible, giving us direct access to the Holy of Holies where we can present our prayers before the Father.

“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: ( rome was going to allow Jews to worship still but they changed this a short time later ) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in Matthew 24 this was about to happen so Jesus is preparing them

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: let him which is on the house top not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:15-18, 20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. ( desolation of Jerusalem written of by daniel when it was besieged and destroyed by Roman armies in 70 ad about twenty years or so after this )

Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

( the law and prophets were what had been written when Jesus said this the Old Testament of the Bible was about to be fulfilled on jerusalems as it had been warned for ages )


But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

also mark 13 is another account of Jesus sermon about this matter which we can again see details we can’t otherwise

“But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains: and let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: and let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:11-16, 19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The great tribulation note they appear in heaven in revelation 7

“And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: ( preists ) and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:14-17‬ ‭

we have prophecy about Jesus coming also just as they did but we’re looking for the New Testament prophecies like this one

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is about his retirn which we are waiting for his to appear from heaven just as he went away into heaven he will return

“this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,

shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus hasn’t returned from heaven yet we agree but the Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled with his first coming , there’s alot of prophecy left but it’s in the New Testament doctrines

 

[TheLearner]

start at #2,037