Gods will vs mans free will

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Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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As moral agents, all mankind has the knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, know right from wrong.

Everyone can justly be judged by God because Adam is the federal head of the human race; therefore his sin is imputed to us. And Adam came into this world with distinct advantages none of us enjoy: He came into it in communion with God (being spiritually alive) and having no natural inclination toward evil. But in addition to Adam's imputed sin, we all inherited his sin nature. And this is why man cannot not sin! And this is what makes the human race helpless -- powerless; and in dire need of rescuing (Rom 5:6; Col 1:13; Gal 1:3-5). Each of us come into this world infected with sin and none us has the cure. None of us has the power to change what we are in our essence. We cannot choose to extricate ourselves from the power of sin. All our faculties (mind, will, conscience and affections) which reside in our heart are corrupt and are in bondage to sin, the devil, and the world.

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you
[choose to] do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.

NIV
When the gospel of Jesus Christ’s Blood and Body is presented, the hearer has freewill to choose to receive salvation or reject it.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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2 Corinthians 4:4 plus, I wonder how when someone is blind to something, which, let's face it, means they cannot see it at all, or comprehend it, and finds the message connected to it foolishness, and is hostile in their minds toward the One True God behind it all, and loves evil, and suppresses truth, and cannot come to God on his own, being a slave of sin and unable to submit to God's law... I wonder how these people who push "free will" think such a person suddenly decides to throw over their very human nature and choose something he cannot even receive... some say without any help from God at all.
 

jacko

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2024
918
517
93
When the gospel of Jesus Christ’s Blood and Body is presented, the hearer has freewill to choose to receive salvation or reject it.

Let's really think about this statement, deeply. The Muslim who was born into a generation of Muslims who lives in Saudi Arabia, how does that person come to Christ on his own w/o the spirit opening his heart.

Let's flip the script, is there anything they can say for You to profess Allah is the name of the living God? I don't think so. Therefore, I think only through our lord God and through his grace can the seed take root.


 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,938
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Let's really think about this statement, deeply. The Muslim who was born into a generation of Muslims who
lives in Saudi Arabia, how does that person come to Christ on his own w/o the spirit opening his heart.

Let's flip the script, is there anything they can say for You to profess Allah is the name of the living God?
I don't think so. Therefore, I think only through our lord God and through his grace can the seed take root.

That is exactly right and aligns with what Scripture teaches on the matter:

No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

But that is not what some here say, or believe. They think the natural
man can choose to believe these things with no help from God at all.


And worse! They make God out to be a tyrant if and when He acts unilaterally in
a person's life, claiming He is kidnapping people against their will, and also say
God is unfair if He reveals Himself in one way to one person and does not do the
exact same thing for everybody else. Obviously these people have either not read
the Bible, or have not comprehended with any degree of intelligence what it is they read.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,864
8,333
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As moral agents, all mankind has the knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, know right from wrong.

Everyone can justly be judged by God because Adam is the federal head of the human race; therefore his sin is imputed to us. And Adam came into this world with distinct advantages none of us enjoy: He came into it in communion with God (being spiritually alive) and having no natural inclination toward evil. But in addition to Adam's imputed sin, we all inherited his sin nature. And this is why man cannot not sin! And this is what makes the human race helpless -- powerless; and in dire need of rescuing (Rom 5:6; Col 1:13; Gal 1:3-5). Each of us come into this world infected with sin and none us has the cure. None of us has the power to change what we are in our essence. We cannot choose to extricate ourselves from the power of sin. All our faculties (mind, will, conscience and affections) which reside in our heart are corrupt and are in bondage to sin, the devil, and the world.

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you
[choose to] do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.

NIV
Unfallen Adam chose to sin (albeit with extenuating circumstances), Eve was deceived and "fell to her death" while unfallen.
And then BOTH of them CHOSE of their own free will to confess their sin before God and receive His gift of salvation.

So goes the unbiblical theories of the hyper-Calvinists right down the drain.

Furthermore, all who follow them are saved in precisely the same way. Confession, repentance and consequently receiving their salvation and acquittal from God.

Oh and BTW.......who was it in Genesis 3 that DID NOT confess their sin? And still won't? Like just refusing no no no.
Who was it that Eve pointed to as blameworthy during the trial? What was Gods judgement on this entity?
 

jacko

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2024
918
517
93
That is exactly right and aligns with what Scripture teaches on the matter:

No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

But that is not what some here say, or believe. They think the natural
man can choose to believe these things with no help from God at all.

It makes sense because even without a biblical basis for it. Like if you believe something is true for generations and generations, you are NOT going to be change your mind on something as integral to your being as God.

For the Muslims are as passionate and some even MORE fanatical about their false profit Mohamed and Allah.
 

jacko

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2024
918
517
93
guys, watch the video with the testimony of the Muslim convert... its crazy. Yes, he's a real dude and I've hit up on Youtube.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,864
8,333
113
Unfallen Adam chose to sin (albeit with extenuating circumstances), Eve was deceived and "fell to her death" while unfallen.
And then BOTH of them CHOSE of their own free will to confess their sin before God and receive His gift of salvation.

So goes the unbiblical theories of the hyper-Calvinists right down the drain.

Furthermore, all who follow them are saved in precisely the same way. Confession, repentance and consequently receiving their salvation and acquittal from God.

Oh and BTW.......who was it in Genesis 3 that DID NOT confess their sin? And still won't? Like just refusing no no no.
Who was it that Eve pointed to as blameworthy during the trial? What was Gods judgement on this entity?
And then at the trial, BOTH of them CHOSE of their own free will to throw themselves on the mercy of God, confess their sin before God and receive His gift of salvation.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,938
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guys, watch the video with the testimony of the Muslim convert... its crazy. Yes, he's a real dude and I've hit up on Youtube.
I know it is weird but there are those who do not believe in supernatural manifestations.
And there are those here who support and defend the actions of Muslim terrorists.
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,938
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So God judges men according to the gospel, which not everyone has heard. That is what I suspected.

:)
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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255
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It wasn’t about being rescued, it was about making a choice… choosing Jesus Christ as Savior Lord and King.

Unless you want to say “saved” is the same as “rescued.” I just know being saved or rescued doesn’t happen unless I choose to receive it.
Hmm...It didn't work like that when God rescued the ancient Israelites from Egypt. In fact, after Moses confronted Pharaoh for the fist time, and Pharaoh responded by turning up the heat on his slaves, the Jews wanted nothing to do with being rescued. BUT...as you probably know, God that unjust tyrant"forced" the rescue mission on them anyhow.

Salvation is not about man making a choice; but rather God making a choice to redeem a people for himself thereby making good on his promise to Abraham. God does not elect to save any sinner on the basis of any merit in the sinner (e.g. his good choice); but rather for his own sake, purpose and glory he saves his chosen people.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,384
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When the gospel of Jesus Christ’s Blood and Body is presented, the hearer has freewill to choose to receive salvation or reject it.
Did the ancient Israelites in Egypt have "freewill" to walk away from their bondage to Pharaoh?
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
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So God judges men according to the gospel, which not everyone has heard. That is what I suspected.

:)
You have my agreement, but the Lord is able to make himself heard by then who are receptive:

In Gen 3:15:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
We see that Adam and Eve received a promise from the Lord that led them to forgiveness and life by the faith that was probably given to them when they believed the word of the lord.
Abraham too received the gospel as seen in Gal 3:6-11, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Faith is what outshines the keeping of the law, whereby even those of old, who were given a limited revelation, could cleave to that word of the Lord, finding forgiveness and obedience to the Lord's Spirit unto salvation.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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You have my agreement, but the Lord is able to make himself heard by then who are receptive:

In Gen 3:15:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
We see that Adam and Eve received a promise from the Lord that led them to forgiveness and life by the faith that was probably given to them when they believed the word of the lord.
Abraham too received the gospel as seen in Gal 3:6-11, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Faith is what outshines the keeping of the law, whereby even those of old, who were given a limited revelation, could cleave to that word of the Lord, finding forgiveness and obedience to the Lord's Spirit unto salvation.
That's great. Perhaps those who disagree, you know, those who say such things as it is unfair of God to reveal Himself one way to one person and not do the exact same thing for everyone else, or, God is a rapist and a scheming tyrant and kidnapping people against their will to act unilaterally, which obviously God does act unilaterally, and does treat different people differently... honestly I am not sure where such people get off judging God such ways, for it really seems to border on blasphemy to me yet these people, who claim to be Christians, have made and or agreed with such statements repeatedly. It seems they really do think that being saved by God makes saved people victims of a hoax.

Count yourself fortunate if you have not had to deal with any of that level of hatred for believing God is good and gracious to save.
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
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Did the ancient Israelites in Egypt have "freewill" to walk away from their bondage to Pharaoh?
Perhaps they did not, but they did exercise their free will when they refused to heed Joshua and Caleb and listened to the other ten spies sent into the promised land. When they had a golden calf made and worshiped it. When they refused to look at the serpent that Moses put upon his staff, or when they tried to gather more than a days worth of manna, or when they stuffed themselves with quail meat; even as they beheld the Lord's miracles wrought through Moses.
Paul tells us of how Pharaoh's heart was hardened by the Lord and Paul responds to this very question, by showing how the Lord bare with much long suffering regarding Pharaoh's sins, withholding judgement in order to show his power and declare his name to the world's nations of that time. (See Rom 9: 17-23)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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It wasn’t about being rescued, it was about making a choice… choosing Jesus Christ as Savior Lord and King.

Unless you want to say “saved” is the same as “rescued.” I just know being saved or rescued doesn’t happen unless I choose to receive it.
Jesus rescued you. Jesus saved you.

Jesus chose you before the foundation of the world.

You were like the rest of the lost. We all were. Dead in our sin, until He quickened us.

You describe that quickening as the Holy Spirit opening your eyes to the Truth of the Gospel.

I’m fine with that description, as long as you fully understand YOU did NOTHING to save yourself. It wasn’t your choice that saved you.

It was Jesus that saved you. Please do not take away from His Glory.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,938
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Perhaps they did not, but they did exercise their free will when they refused to heed Joshua and Caleb and listened to the other ten spies sent into the promised land. When they had a golden calf made and worshiped it. When they refused to look at the serpent that Moses put upon his staff, or when they tried to gather more than a days worth of manna, or when they stuffed themselves with quail meat; even as they beheld the Lord's miracles wrought through Moses.
Paul tells us of how Pharaoh's heart was hardened by the Lord and Paul responds to this very question, by showing how the Lord bare with much long suffering regarding Pharaoh's sins, withholding judgement in order to show his power and declare his name to the world's nations of that time. (See Rom 9: 17-23)
I love the Exodus story and much of what leads up to it... Jacob and Rachel and Leah and his twelve sons... how the Hebrew people ended up in Egypt, all about Joseph etc. And in reading through the ten plagues, we do see that Pharaoh hardened his own heart multiple times before God hardened it. In fact you could say that God simply hardened it further. It is God who opens and closes people's hearts, though. “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” People do it to themselves, also, but make no mistake about it, nobody is born with a heart turned to God. There are none righteous, all have turned away. To hear some speak? Yikes. Such Scriptural truths do not apply to them. They kick and scream against what the Bible says of the natural man. And they hate those that tell the truth about such matters.
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
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That's great. Perhaps those who disagree, you know, those who say such things as it is unfair of God to reveal Himself one way to one person and not do the exact same thing for everyone else, or, God is a rapist and a scheming tyrant and kidnapping people against their will to act unilaterally, which obviously God does act unilaterally, and does treat different people differently... honestly I am not sure where such people get off judging God such ways, for it really seems to border on blasphemy to me yet these people, who claim to be Christians, have made and or agreed with such statements repeatedly. It seems they really do think that being saved by God makes saved people victims of a hoax.

Count yourself fortunate if you have not had to deal with any of that level of hatred for believing God is good and gracious to save.

That's hard for me to hear from you, whom I look up to and who has always been a beacon of light for God's grace and love here at Christian chat. I suspect I missed some of what has been going on and for that I'm truly sorry! The Lord continue to hold you close to his heart, living and walking in you while sharing his wisdom, which has been obvious to many of us who've had the honor of your comments and insights. PTL! in Jesus' name, our God and King, both now and forever!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,864
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Did the ancient Israelites in Egypt have "freewill" to walk away from their bondage to Pharaoh?
You have got to be kidding. Not only did they have the free will to walk away, they had the free will to want to go back. Yes, God took it upon Himself to make sure that they couldn't. But that hardly affects the fact of their free will.

Free will reigns supreme in God's creation order. It is sacrosanct.

Satan's lie is that is free will does not exist, therefore true life does not exist. Therefore God is a cosmic tyrant and evil. Therefore God cannot and does not judge sin. Therefore there is no resurrection. Therefore the Gods free will offer of salvation is bogus, God is peddling a fraud and God is a deceiver.

This is by no means an exhaustive list of Satan's lies that he is "merchandising".

I hope you see where this is going as it relates to your horrifically malevolent theories.