Gods will vs mans free will
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This does NOT say they are born "sinless". If we are going to play the game then the rules need to be the same for both. This states the physically obvious, but does not say that mankind is born in a state of sinlessness. Not at all. Again I find it insane to be on a Christian site, debating if men are born sinless. Especially born again and having God open my eyes to the truth, this is the most ridiculous thing I've seen a professing Christian try to assert. That we are born sinless and in 100% perfect shape with God? It just isn't true man. Sorry, but we come into this world spiritually dead, this means disconnected from God. We come out broken and that's just the truth man. I reject the scripture you provided says what you assert it says.
We can't really build this kind of doctrine on 1 scripture anyway.
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you
obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?
no understanding.
2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
Man's will is constrained by too many factors to call it free.
Where are all your verses on free will?
Oh, wait. There aren't any. @JohnRH @HeIsHere
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you
obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?
no understanding.
2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
Man's will is constrained by too many factors to call it free.
Where are all your verses on free will?
Oh, wait. There aren't any. @JohnRH @HeIsHere
Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
I know, and I don't want to be "ugly" about it, or let my ego get too ahead of itself, but to be honestly debating on a Christian website about if men are born into sin or not is just crazy to me. I understand the larger debate here about men's free will Vs Gods, I get that, we can have different points of view on this, we can look at it from different angles. I do NOT feel the same way about this subject. The fact we are born estranged from God, that because of Adam we are ALL born into sin with no way or hope of repairing the damage ourselves, that we are BORN in need of a savior. This is a fundamental belief to the truth. This is one of those things I thought we all understood to be true, and that's why it's so crazy to me that I am debating on CC that we are born sinners. Weird.
Yes, and I believe we may have discussed it before, how when you get right down to it they are being guided by their pride to believe they did not need God's help to come to believe, that therefore mankind in general is free to choose just as they believe they were inherently so despite the fairly copious amounts Scripture has to say to the contrary about the natural man.
They are like the popes waxing poetic on Mary making up things that have no Biblical basis whatsoever.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish
their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
.
Serial killer Ed Kemper committed a number of unspeakable crimes against
women, but nevertheless guys in his situation are not beyond redemption.
● John 3:16-17 . . For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only
son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For
God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to save
the world through him.
The Greek word translated "loved" in that verse rarely has anything to do
with fondness. It mostly pertains to benevolence, e.g. kindness, courtesy,
lenience, tolerance, generosity, charity, sympathy, and compassion, etc. In
point of fact no doubt many of us disgust the supreme being and bear little,
if any, resemblance to the kind of folks with whom He prefers to associate.
Nevertheless, God was thinking of Ed Kemper, when His No.1 son went to
the cross.
● Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to
his own way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
So if he had a mind to, Ed could take advantage of Jesus' crucifixion to
protect himself from retribution. But he'd still be the same old Ed Kemper,
and in that state, Ed has some very serious issues with women that are
humanly impossible to cure.
After watching interviews with Ed on YouTube, I've no doubt he'd be the first
to tell you, quite candidly and matter of fact, that women in Heaven would
be in very grave danger with him there as he is now. Well, God is in the
wings for guys like Ed and is well able to not merely rectify Ed's problems,
but to remove them so the poor guy can depart this life a different man.
● Col 2:11-12 . . In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the
sinful nature-- not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with
the circumcision done by Christ.
Judaism has its circumcision, but Christianity has one that's much better
because it has the power to liberate people from human nature's rather
disagreeable inclinations, viz: whereas Judaism's circumcision is merely a
ritual, Christianity's is the hand of God.
● 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has given us everything we need for life
and piety through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and
goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious
promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and
escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (cf. Ezek 36:24-27)
The divine nature is doubtless a whole lot better at piety than human nature
ever could be or ever will be.
NOTE: (Ed is currently 75, in poor health, and contained in a California
medical facility.)
_
Serial killer Ed Kemper committed a number of unspeakable crimes against
women, but nevertheless guys in his situation are not beyond redemption.
● John 3:16-17 . . For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only
son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For
God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to save
the world through him.
The Greek word translated "loved" in that verse rarely has anything to do
with fondness. It mostly pertains to benevolence, e.g. kindness, courtesy,
lenience, tolerance, generosity, charity, sympathy, and compassion, etc. In
point of fact no doubt many of us disgust the supreme being and bear little,
if any, resemblance to the kind of folks with whom He prefers to associate.
Nevertheless, God was thinking of Ed Kemper, when His No.1 son went to
the cross.
● Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to
his own way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
So if he had a mind to, Ed could take advantage of Jesus' crucifixion to
protect himself from retribution. But he'd still be the same old Ed Kemper,
and in that state, Ed has some very serious issues with women that are
humanly impossible to cure.
After watching interviews with Ed on YouTube, I've no doubt he'd be the first
to tell you, quite candidly and matter of fact, that women in Heaven would
be in very grave danger with him there as he is now. Well, God is in the
wings for guys like Ed and is well able to not merely rectify Ed's problems,
but to remove them so the poor guy can depart this life a different man.
● Col 2:11-12 . . In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the
sinful nature-- not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with
the circumcision done by Christ.
Judaism has its circumcision, but Christianity has one that's much better
because it has the power to liberate people from human nature's rather
disagreeable inclinations, viz: whereas Judaism's circumcision is merely a
ritual, Christianity's is the hand of God.
● 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has given us everything we need for life
and piety through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and
goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious
promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and
escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (cf. Ezek 36:24-27)
The divine nature is doubtless a whole lot better at piety than human nature
ever could be or ever will be.
NOTE: (Ed is currently 75, in poor health, and contained in a California
medical facility.)
_
.
FAQ: What if I'm naturally dishonest; you know: born that way?
REPLY: You mean like Ps 58:3, which says:
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray
from birth."
Well; that's pretty serious.
● Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.
● Rev 22:15 . . Outside are . . those who practice falsehood.
OBJECTION: I'm not a degenerate liar. I'm basically honest and lie only on
occasion.
REPLY: But you're not 100% honest, i.e. you're a person of marginal
integrity whom God cannot rely upon to always tell Him the truth.
Liars don't need a rule book, instead; they need a miracle to liberate them
from themselves so they don't end up on the wrong side of things. In other
words: they need an overhaul from top to bottom and inside and out, i.e. a
full and complete renovation to get rid of that lying streak they were born
with; to wit:
● John 3:7 . . You should not be surprised at my saying that you must be
born again.
It's my guess that most natural-born liars would agree that it's to their
advantage to start over again; equipped with propensities and predilections
that God can approve.
● Ps 15:1-2 . Lord: who may dwell in Your sanctuary? Who may live on Your
holy hill? . . . He who speaks the truth from his heart.
_
FAQ: What if I'm naturally dishonest; you know: born that way?
REPLY: You mean like Ps 58:3, which says:
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray
from birth."
Well; that's pretty serious.
● Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.
● Rev 22:15 . . Outside are . . those who practice falsehood.
OBJECTION: I'm not a degenerate liar. I'm basically honest and lie only on
occasion.
REPLY: But you're not 100% honest, i.e. you're a person of marginal
integrity whom God cannot rely upon to always tell Him the truth.
Liars don't need a rule book, instead; they need a miracle to liberate them
from themselves so they don't end up on the wrong side of things. In other
words: they need an overhaul from top to bottom and inside and out, i.e. a
full and complete renovation to get rid of that lying streak they were born
with; to wit:
● John 3:7 . . You should not be surprised at my saying that you must be
born again.
It's my guess that most natural-born liars would agree that it's to their
advantage to start over again; equipped with propensities and predilections
that God can approve.
● Ps 15:1-2 . Lord: who may dwell in Your sanctuary? Who may live on Your
holy hill? . . . He who speaks the truth from his heart.
_
Rom 1: 18-23:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Rom 1: 25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 1:28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
As moral agents, all mankind has the knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, know right from wrong.
Everyone can justly be judged by God because Adam is the federal head of the human race; therefore his sin is imputed to us. And Adam came into this world with distinct advantages none of us enjoy: He came into it in communion with God (being spiritually alive) and having no natural inclination toward evil. But in addition to Adam's imputed sin, we all inherited his sin nature. And this is why man cannot not sin! And this is what makes the human race helpless -- powerless; and in dire need of rescuing (Rom 5:6; Col 1:13; Gal 1:3-5). Each of us come into this world infected with sin and none us has the cure. None of us has the power to change what we are in our essence. We cannot choose to extricate ourselves from the power of sin. All our faculties (mind, will, conscience and affections) which reside in our heart are corrupt and are in bondage to sin, the devil, and the world.
Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you [choose to] do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV
So...you think man's will is immune to the power of sin even though man's heart is the fount of all evil (Jer 17:9; Gen 6:5; 8:21, Ps 51:5, etc.)?
Think of it as being perfect, unaltered, and unalterable in its essence at all times. It functions exactly the same pre-fall, post-fall, pre-regeneration, post-regeneration, pre-death, post-death, in heaven, or in hell.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deut 30:19 (KJV)