Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Weren't you just telling us you knew for a fact people were saved and then they lost their salvation??? You said 50 to 100 people you knew lost their salvation!!! That's a lot of people you knew were saved and now you're saying only God knows whether or not people are saved. You contradict yourself.

For your info, the Abrahamic Covenant doesn't replace or exclude anyone. As stated yesterday, the covenant is INCLUSIVE; for it was God's intention in eternity to redeem Jews and Gentiles alike "from every tribe and language and people and nation" (Rev 5:9). Replacement Theology is just a visceral, knee-jerk reaction to God's revealed redemptive program.[/QUOTE]

“and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. …..

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

…….And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:28, 34-36, 42-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God doesn’t care what our flesh looks like or which ancestor it came from anymore it’s about our spirit now jew or gentile no difference

i think we should look at salvation as a promise of the lord for believers when he returns

“I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3-5‬ ‭NIV‬‬

when we come to know Jesus it should be encouraging that he’s our judge he is better at it than we could be

At least you didn't claim to have Deity insight into their hearts. Instead, it's based upon your interpretation of non-related verses. I've seen all that before from those who fail to rightly divide the word of truth.

MM

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

So, for those who are mathematically challenged, a fourth of 8 Billion is 2 Billion. Then, a third of the remaining 6 Billion is another 2 Billion. So, 2 Billion plus 2 Billion is 4 Billion, which is half of the original 8 Billion.

So, half of mankind will be killed during that 7 years of Jacob's 70th heptad.

No nonsense to any of that at all.

MM[/QUOTE]

Are you aware that the Gr. term gees (Strong's 1093) is the same term that is also often translated "land", "ground", etc.? (See Mat 2:6, 20-21; 4:15; Mk 9:20; 14: 35; Lk 4:25; Jude 1:5, etc.) You're obviously assuming, along with KJV translators (and other translators for other versions) that that is the correct rendering. But the YLT, as another example, renders the phrase "over the fourth part of the land". You obviously have never performed a word usage study on "gees". Of course, what largely determines correct usage would the context of scripture. The rendering "land" would fit much better with the opening chapter of Revelation, as well as the larger context of the bible such as Dan 9, Mat 24, etc.. The YLT renders Rev 1:7 as follows:

Rev 1:7
7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!
YLT

And the Darby, another literal translation reads:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen.
Darby

"Tribes of the earth" simply doesn't fit the context here since the tribes of the earth did not "pierce him", so why would they "wail"? Rather, the [Jewish] tribes of the Land did! The Jews (especially believers) living during the during the Jewish Wars (67-70 A.D. ), they would have understood what was going on because Jesus told the Jews that they would "see" him coming on the clouds in judgment (Mat 24:30; 26:64, etc.). Again, the "tribes of the earth" would not have witnessed the Great Tribulation of 70 A.D. Jesus came in judgment in 70 A.D. but not visibly. He came in judgment the same way God came in judgment against Egypt (Isa 19:1).

Another huge clue that "land" is the correct rendering are all the instances where John writes basically that things he's writing "must shortly take place" (or equivalent phrases) (Rev 1:1. He was telling his audience what they were going to witness very soon -- the same audience that would have been included in Jesus' "this generation" prophecy in Mat 24, etc.

Your vaunted Great Tribulation ship sailed long ago and left you stranded at port; for most of Revelation has already been fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Of course, if you apply your math to the land of Palestine, then you could begin to understand why it's called the "great tribulation".

They must believe in a Jesus and his father who have VERY weak hands, because the Jesus in the Bible said this:

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

So when they harangue about other verses that allegedly point to that which defies these passages, thus trying to pit God's word against itself, they're spewing doctrines of demons in the final analysis. I pray their eyes are opened soon to their errors.

MM

“and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. …..

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

…….And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:28, 34-36, 42-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God doesn’t care what our flesh looks like or which ancestor it came from anymore it’s about our spirit now jew or gentile no difference[/QUOTE]

On the other hand, one of Abraham's seeds is his SPIRITUAL seed, since he is the father of who have the kind of faith he had. It's Abraham's [SPIRITUAL] descendants that God saves -- and no others! We even see this great truth in the Exodus narrative; for many pagan Gentiles left Egypt along with the Israelites (Ex 12:38)! IOW, God redeemed them as well and freed them from their bondage.

Yep, that was spoken to Israel at a time when they were under the Kingdom Gospel.

That was spoken to the body of Christ, who was not under the Kingdom Gospel, but rather the Gospel of Grace.

MM

On the other hand, one of Abraham's seeds is his SPIRITUAL seed, since he is the father of who have the kind of faith he had. It's Abraham's [SPIRITUAL] descendants that God saves -- and no others! We even see this great truth in the Exodus narrative; for many pagan Gentiles left Egypt along with the Israelites (Ex 12:38)! IOW, God redeemed them as well and freed them from their bondage.[/QUOTE]

“On the other hand, one of Abraham's seeds is his SPIRITUAL seed,”

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭

“and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:18‬ ‭

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I will add to that, I believe that God's hand of preserving His Word correctly throughout time is ALSO an act He is quite capable of.

If someone is not fluent in English, perhaps they should seek an accurate Bible in their native tongue. It will not be based on the critical text.

I like the fact the kingdom Daniel spoke of and Abraham looked forward too was the heavenly kingdom, as opposed to the physical kingdom where Israel rules for a 1000yrs in my opinion while full of physical blessing, is also full of unbelief, obviously so if the world will again follow Satan at the end of the period and attack Israel.

Anyway the earthly kingdom after a 1000years with all its problems will be dissolved along with its heavens and a new heavens and earth will be made, where all believers will dwell together in a massive city and a new earth as our eternal home.

Peter who also tells people to look to the new heavens and earth emphasises this.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Abraham by faith waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Which is why they were happy to be vagabonds or wanderer's on the earth, they did not love this world.

All those of faith in Hebrews 11 desired a heavenly country, therefore God is not ashamed to be called there God, And Has prepared a heavenly city for them and us.

Sorry if I gone off topic, I'm just excited to be there in the city one day

I'm curious, if you don't mind. You believe that you and all other believers will dwell in the New Jerusalem?

I found one verse where there is any mention of a "heavenly kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Where will the body of Christ reside in eterntiy?

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The body of Christ, therefore, will not dwell in that city on the new earth. Neither the New earth nor the New Jerusalem are in Heaven, but in a new creation like this one, except that it will not be corrupted with sin. We, on the other hand, will be in Heaven with the Lord, as the above verse clearly states, and is supported by these:

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Replacement theology teaches that we, the Church, replaced Israel, thus receiving all the promises aimed at Israel, which is a doctrine of demons. As an Israeli who is a member of the body of Christ, I find that corrupt belief system offensive and downright wicked, but it is what some believe.

MM

No not off topic at all I like when people speak freely about things they are passionate about I appreciate the response honestly love that last part we’ll said


“the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:39-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12, 15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:

for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭

“the body of Christ, who was not under the Kingdom Gospel, but rather the Gospel of Grace.”

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:6-7‬ ‭

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; ….Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had appointed him ( paul ) a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

….Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23-24, 28-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1,

“And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to our trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:11

“which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What kingdom was Israel under when God cut his covenant with Abraham -- a covenant he made long before Issac was even born?

Are there aren't two different gospels either. Typical Dispen insanity.

More misrepresentation. It gets old, but it's just how things are.

2 Corinthians 4:4

“On the other hand, one of Abraham's seeds is his SPIRITUAL seed,”

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭

“and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:18‬ ‭

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬[/QUOTE]

Yes, the Ultimate Seed of Abraham.

And I love the Dan 7 passage because the prophecy was filled when Jesus ascended into heaven. And the King was given a kingdom in which he ruling is right now! (And Peter makes this fact abundantly clear in Acts!) How can it be said that Jesus is right now King, even though he doesn't presently have a kingdom over which he rules? Of course, his kingdom is the Body of Christ!

To answer the first question, I guess, yes! I think myself and all other believers will eventually dwell in the New Jerusalem, which at the moment is a heavenly city and it's where our heavenly hope is.

Exactly like Paul's and Peter's hope is heavenly as you quoted, to me unbelief wants a earthly kingdom and earthly blessings, for example in the gospel accounts unbelief hoped for a Messiah who was going to overthrow Roman rule, and set up the physical kingdom and have Israel Rule, therefore they rejected Christ who seemed to speaking of another kingdom, they were wanting a physical kingdom right then and there which was why they ended up choosing Barabbas over Jesus, who instigated a insurrection.

I guess I see my hope as upward and dwelling in heavenly places where the bride of Christ dwells with her Husband. Its where the Lord went and prepared a mansion for me.
Yet in the new creation I see the heavenly city, the bride descending to earth, now heaven is on earth, so I guess I see it as one and the same.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I love hearing of Israeli's who become Christians, When I read of the promises for Israel, I also see earthly promises which I don't even want to receive, I mean why would I want to live on a sinful earth in a mortal body, and I see that those like Abraham also did not care about the earthly promises but instead looked for the heavenly promise, So I don't think the Church has replaced Israel just that we have joined in the heavenly promises, while God will still fulfill the earthly promises to Israel.

Even though I'm not of Jewish descent I still happily sing "father Abraham has many sons I am one of them and so are you."

But Im curious now, how do you see the new Jerusalem that descends to earth, who dwells there and if or where do we dwell?