Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Rufus]

Part I (truncated due to size)

No, but what was God's response to Moses? Refer to Exodus 32:33. God did not, and could not, erase Moses from His book because Moses's sins were to be forgiven through Christ. Therefore, regardless of what he offered to God, his salvation could not be forfeited. This is why God stated, "Whoever has sinned against me." Since Moses's sins were to be forgiven by Christ, he was never at risk of losing his salvation. In this instance, Moses served as a representation of what Christ would ultimately accomplish.

[Exo 32:33 KJV] 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.



No. Who is he that overcometh? Those who are born of themselves? No, absolutely not, only those born of God! It is by the love of God, that His commandments are kept, not of themselves. And His commandment is satisfied by God - that those who were chosen, truly come to believe in Christ.

[1Jo 5:3-5 KJV]
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?



No, a castaway from preaching, not a castaway from salvation.

The redeemed cannot be lost; if that were possible, it would imply that Christ's sacrifice is less powerful than the strength of sin, which cannot be the case since Christ is God.



They belittled and dismissed the Christian faith. Merely believing does not necessarily equate to salvation.

[Luk 8:13 ESV] 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.



The phrase "he stands strong" signifies reliance on one's own efforts and strength, rather than trust in Christ. Contrary to what you suggested, it does not imply being "strong in faith"; in fact, it suggests the exact opposite.

They were being instructed as an admonition.

[1Co 10:11 KJV]
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

[1Co 10:13 KJV] 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].



Those in Christ are so by God, not man:

[1Co 1:30 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:



Not everyone can persist in God's goodness, as not all are truly saved; the unsaved may only do so temporarily. Those who are genuinely saved will not falter in such a way, for they are sustained by the power of the Holy Spirit. Upon salvation and rebirth, the Holy Spirit is bestowed and remains forever, granted by Christ, not by human hands.

[Rom 15:13-14 KJV]
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. 14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another..

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Eph 5:9 KJV]
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth



Indeed, Solomon was saved. The warning pertained to the rending of the earthly kingdom of Israel from him, not the forfeiture of his salvation.

[1Ki 11:11-13 KJV]
11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. 1
12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: [but] I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; [but] will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.

Excellent post. And if anyone could lose their salvation this would pose a few very serious theological problems. For starters, it would mean that Christ did not defeat the works of the devil, which was one of his major goals during his First Advent. It also implies, Jesus fails at his ministry of High Priest and his ministry as the Good Shepherd in which he promised that he would lose none. Plus God's will would have been thwarted since it's not his will that anyone he gives to his Son should perish.

 

[Rufus]

For your info, the Abrahamic Covenant doesn't replace or exclude anyone. As stated yesterday, the covenant is INCLUSIVE; for it was God's intention in eternity to redeem Jews and Gentiles alike "from every tribe and language and people and nation" (Rev 5:9). Replacement Theology is just a visceral, knee-jerk reaction to God's revealed redemptive program.

Yes, this does indeed smack of replacement theology, or at least some portions of that system of thought.

Being one body under the Headship of Christ does not mean that the promises made through Abraham, Isaak and Israel transfer to us today. Melding together in Christ, with all distinctions melting away, that will never nullify the promises made to the nation Israel on this earth nor in the new earth to come. The body of Christ is not destined for the new earth or the New Jerusalem. We are destined for inhabiting the Heavenly places, just as scripture declares, which seems to be the portion of scripture that you seem to want to deny or ignore, which is pretty much the same thing.

MM[/QUOTE]

Logically, it doesn't since the Abrahamic Covenant is INCLUSIVE. Therefore, by definition, no one is excluded or replaced. You just don't understand God's covenants, most particularly the Abrahamic Covenant of Promise which preceded the Law... or to even put a finer point on it the Abrahamic Covenant and Abraham's Four Seeds. And it's from this misunderstanding that all the confusion and errors stem -- with both Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. Both of these systems are replete with falsehoods!

 

[Musicmaster]

Yes, this does indeed smack of replacement theology, or at least some portions of that system of thought.

Being one body under the Headship of Christ does not mean that the promises made through Abraham, Isaak and Israel transfer to us today. Melding together in Christ, with all distinctions melting away, that will never nullify the promises made to the nation Israel on this earth nor in the new earth to come. The body of Christ is not destined for the new earth or the New Jerusalem. We are destined for inhabiting the Heavenly places, just as scripture declares, which seems to be the portion of scripture that you seem to want to deny or ignore, which is pretty much the same thing.

MM

Logically, it doesn't since the Abrahamic Covenant is INCLUSIVE. Therefore, by definition, no one is excluded or replaced. You just don't understand God's covenants, most particularly the Abrahamic Covenant of Promise which preceded the Law... or to even put a finer point on it the Abrahamic Covenant and Abraham's Four Seeds. And it's from this misunderstanding that all the confusion and errors stem -- with both Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. Both of these systems are replete with falsehoods![/QUOTE]

Throwing in modern concepts of "inclusiveness" is great for the liberal mindset, but it fails to recognize the divisions that still exist, in that we in the body of Christ are NOT partakers of the Abrahamic promises since those promises were ONLY for the nation Israel, the bloodline descendants of Abraham. The ownership of that land over there is not something of which we in Christ will be partakers. Period. We will be removed before Israel FINALLY possess ALL the land promised to Abraham and his descendants.

Muddying those waters only gets one's feet dirty with falsehoods.

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, eternal life is promised to all the “faithful” followers of Christ. Just because the “unfaithful don’t receive it does NOT make his promises untrue. Revelation 2 and 3-God is writing to the Christians in those churches . He says to the saints at Ephesus that they had “FALLEN”. Then He gives them some choices. First He told them to Repent. ( why did they need to repent if they were saved regardless?). That doesn’t make sense. Then, still talking to these “FALLEN CHRISTIANS”, He says, to those (Christians) who OVERCOME SIN, I will let THEM eat from the tree of life in Paradise. Did you notice He did not promise this to Those “FALLEN CHRISTIANS”. He told them to “REPENT.” The promise of eternal life is promised to those who OVERCOME sin, not
those who sin and do not repent. He also says, If you will be faithful (to me) until you die, I will give you the crown of life. Who was that promise made to—-the “FALLEN CHRISTIANS”? NO! Only those who “repent” and live a faithful life to the Lord. And finally, in verse 11, JESUS says, the ones who OVERCOME—who are they?— they are the ones who are FAITHFUL to God and have overcome sin—Jesus says they will not go to hell. What about the ones who 1) do NOT repent; 2) do NOT overcome sin. 3) are NOT “faithful”? They will will be burned up by the second death. How can you Mis-lead people into thinking God does NOT keep his promises? I have to believe you really know better.

God’s promise of “never seeing death is made to the righteous.” Proverbs 12:28 “In the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS is life. And in its pathway there is no death.” God never promised “life” to the UN-righteous. Christians who sin and do not repent are UN-righteous. God’s promises of life , a crown, etc, are not given to them. You are not teaching the truth. John 8:51- God says anyone who KEEPS MY WORD, shall never see death. If that is true then the opposite of that is also true. “Anyone who does NOT keep my word, shall die.” GOD DOES KEEP HIS PROMISES.

In Ephesians 1, those who were sealed by the Holy Spirit were those who KEPT GOD’s WORD. See verse 1. God made no such promise to those “unfaithful” Christians who do NOT keep His word. So, you see, GOD DOES KEEP HIS PROMISES. I wonder what He thinks of you for trying to created doubt and unbelief in the mind of people by accusing him of such “unrighteousness”.

If A person is born again, and given eternal life., are they not faithful?

You did not really answer my question. Can you try again please?

 

[Beckworth]

Jesus NEVER FAILS. And to suggest He could is Blasphemy. God keeps all of His promises TO THE FAITHFUL. He has not promised salvation to the UNFAITHFUL. In fact, just the opposite. He says those who don’t repent shall PERISH and he is not just talking about unsaved people. In Revelation 3 and 4 he says the Christians in the church at Ephesus had “FALLEN” ( from grace). They were IN SIN and He told them to “REPENT.” Why would they need to repent if they couldn’t lose their salvation anyway?? That makes repentance unnecessary. God only promises Paradise, the tree of Life, (verse 7) the crown of life, (verse 10), and escape from hell ( verse 11) to those who OVERCOME sin, not to those who refuse to repent and live in sin.

It’s true no one can take us away from God, but we can remove ourselves from God. We always have that choice.

Yes, salvation can be regained. Why would He tell the “FALLEN” from grace in Revelation 2 to repent if they could not come back?? That is one of the major points in the parable of the PRODIGAL SON.” The “father in that parable represents GOD, our heavenly “father.” The son who left his inheritance (heaven) is the unfaithful Christian. He is the father’s child but he is living a life of sin and has lost or “wasted”his inheritance (heaven). But the son becomes “sorry” ( repentance) and wants to return to his father. As he begins to tell the father he is sorry, the father welcomes him back with open arms. You, undoubtedly, have some other explanation for that parable, but it is a classic example of a child” of God who LEAVES the “father” but repents and returns .

Acts 8 shows another example of a saved person (Simon), who FALLS FROM GRACE, is told by Peter to repent and pray for forgiveness. I’ve already had one Calvinists tell me that Simon wasn’t saved; how He knows that I have no idea because only God can read hearts and knows whether a person is saved or not, but I guess this person THINKS he can do what God does. In spite of the fact that God tells us that SIMON WAS A BELIEVER AND HAD BEEN BAPTIZED. It would be obvious to most people that would indicate he was “saved.” But, yes, a person who has lost his salvation (inheritance) can return to the Father. We have it on very good authority.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jesus NEVER FAILS. And to suggest He could is Blasphemy. God keeps all of His promises TO THE FAITHFUL. He has not promised salvation to the UNFAITHFUL. In fact, just the opposite. He says those who don’t repent shall PERISH and he is not just talking about unsaved people. In Revelation 3 and 4 he says the Christians in the church at Ephesus had “FALLEN” ( from grace). They were IN SIN and He told them to “REPENT.” Why would they need to repent if they couldn’t lose their salvation anyway?? That makes repentance unnecessary. God only promises Paradise, the tree of Life, (verse 7) the crown of life, (verse 10), and escape from hell ( verse 11) to those who OVERCOME sin, not to those who refuse to repent and live in sin.

It’s true no one can take us away from God, but we can remove ourselves from God. We always have that choice.

Yes, salvation can be regained. Why would He tell the “FALLEN” from grace in Revelation 2 to repent if they could not come back?? That is one of the major points in the parable of the PRODIGAL SON.” The “father in that parable represents GOD, our heavenly “father.” The son who left his inheritance (heaven) is the unfaithful Christian. He is the father’s child but he is living a life of sin and has lost or “wasted”his inheritance (heaven). But the son becomes “sorry” ( repentance) and wants to return to his father. As he begins to tell the father he is sorry, the father welcomes him back with open arms. You, undoubtedly, have some other explanation for that parable, but it is a classic example of a child” of God who LEAVES the “father” but repents and returns .

Acts 8 shows another example of a saved person (Simon), who FALLS FROM GRACE, is told by Peter to repent and pray for forgiveness. I’ve already had one Calvinists tell me that Simon wasn’t saved; how He knows that I have no idea because only God can read hearts and knows whether a person is saved or not, but I guess this person THINKS he can do what God does. In spite of the fact that God tells us that SIMON WAS A BELIEVER AND HAD BEEN BAPTIZED. It would be obvious to most people that would indicate he was “saved.” But, yes, a person who has lost his salvation (inheritance) can return to the Father. We have it on very good authority.

Your in effect saying Jesus failed. Paul says different

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

It does not say he might complete the work

It does not say he will only complete it if the person allows him to

It says we can be confident that he will complete it.

You were given eternal life when you were born again (if you were really born again)

eternal is forever. it can not be lost. because its not based on you or your ability, it is based 100% on God and his work.

 

[rogerg]

Excellent post. And if anyone could lose their salvation this would pose a few very serious theological problems. For starters, it would mean that Christ did not defeat the works of the devil, which was one of his major goals during his First Advent. It also implies, Jesus fails at his ministry of High Priest and his ministry as the Good Shepherd in which he promised that he would lose none. Plus God's will would have been thwarted since it's not his will that anyone he gives to his Son should perish.

Thank you very much Rufus, your comment is greatly appreciated, and I have great respect for deep your understanding of Scripture.

 

[Beckworth]

If A person is born again, and given eternal life., are they not faithful?

You did not really answer my question. Can you try again please?[/QUOTE


To the first question, we have to let God answer that for us. What I think makes no difference. What God says in His word is all that matters. The born again Christian is faithful until they sin and refuse to repent. The Christians in Ephesus had “FALLEN from grace verse 5. They had LEFT their first love verse 4. God tells them to “REPENT.” Repentance means to be sorry for your sins and also means to

"I believe You are trying so hard to “ deny” God’s very plain words, and to “explain away” God’s message because it does not fit with the man-made doctrine of Calvinism. By refusing God’s word, you seem to love and honor John Calvin more instead of Jesus who is your Savior and died for you. God is seeking HONEST hearts to follow Him."

And I believe that you do not follow the rules the Bible itself sets-forth and demands be followed for its own interpretation.
Only by adhering to those rules through the Holy Spirit, can you discover its true doctrines. Thus, you mistakenly attribute the responsibility for a person's salvation to their deeds and choices instead of relying solely upon Christ as Savior. Unless you become able to do so through God's grace, the true gospel will remain closed to you.

A (biblical) corporate church could lose its status as a church favored by God due to the doctrines it as a church advocated. However, this did not affect the salvation status of all of its individual members, otherwise, salvation would be by church and not by Christ.

At this point, I'm not going to continue to invest further time and effort to refute and correct the numerous errors of your latest post.

That’s certainly your choice but you failed to tell me what kind of “rules” the Bible demands in order to interpret it. Indeed, I didn’t know the Bible listed rules for interpretation.

I’m really amazed that you can read Revelation 2 and 3 and not see that the status of a church directly affected its individual members. The church at Sardis, for example, had only negative things said about it , and God said they were ready to die (spiritually) but God said there were a FEW in Sardis who had NOT defiled their garments (with sin) and THEY would be clothed in white and God would NOT BLOT OUT THEIR NAMES FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE. That must mean that all of the rest of those Christians at that church would NOT be saved—they would NOT wear white garments and their names WOULD BE BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE. That is a logical conclusion.

 

[Musicmaster]

If A person is born again, and given eternal life., are they not faithful?

You did not really answer my question. Can you try again please?

He never explained how he knows that anyone else has lost their salvation, what it looks like, how one is UNborn again, and how one is UNsealed by Holy Spirit. Given that the Lord never, at any time, revealed those possibilities anywhere in His word, this shows that wishful thinking takes a higher place in the theologies of some.

MM

 

[Rufus]

What follows is a short, concise summary of the differences between the major presuppositions of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism and their resulting errors, which I have copied off the back cover of John G. Reisinger's book. I would heartily recommend Reisinger's little book (151 pages) for more in-depth analsyes of both systems; neither of which do I subscribe. New Covenant Theology is mine, for it avoids the serious errors of both systems.

Abraham's Four Seeds​

Abraham's Four Seeds is a biblical examination of the presuppositions of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Pastor, evangelist and author John G. Reisinger demonstrates how a correct understanding of Abraham's seeds is key to to harmonizing Scripture. He writes:

The following statement is correctly understood will help clear up a lot of confusion: The nation of Israel was not the "Body of Christ", even though the Body of Christ is indeed the true "Israel of God". (emphasis mine)

Covenant Theology cannot accept the first part of that statement and Dispensationalism cannot accept the second part. The basic presuppositions of Covenant Theology make it mandatory that Israel be the Church and be under the same covenant as the church, and the one thing a Dispensationalist must maintain is the church's present and future distinction from Israel which makes it mandatory that Israel and the church can never be under the same covenant or inherit the same blessings. What is essential to one system is anathema to the other system.

Dispensationalism cannot get Israel and the church together in any sense whatsoever, and Covenant Theolgoy cannot get them apart. Dispensationalism cannot see that the church is the true Israel of God and the fulfillment of the promises that God made to Abraham and the fathers, and Covenant Theology cannot see that the church, as the Body of Christ, did not and simply could not exist in reality and experience until the personal advent of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Dispensationalism insists that Israel and the church have totally different promises and and destinies (one earthly and the other heavenly), and Covenant Theology insists that Israel and the Body of Christ are equally "the same redeemed church under the same 'covenant of grace' and governed by the same canon of conduct.'"

Dispensationalism drives a wedge between the OT and NT and never the twain shall meet as specific promise (OT) and identical fulfillment (NT); and Covenant Theology flattens the whole bible out into one covenant where there is no real and vital distinction between either the Old and New Covenants or Israel and the church.

The Old Covenant proved one's guilt and forbade one to draw near without a perfect righteousness or an acceptable sacrifice. The New Covenant declares a believer to be both righteous and accpetable in God's sight, and bids him to come boldly without fear into the very Most Holy place that was totally closed off to all but Aaron under the Old Covenant.

The Law as a legal covenant ended when the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom, and the Law as a pedagogue over the conscience was dismissed on the Day of Pentecost when the 'promise of the Father' took up his abode in every believers as the personal Vicar of the ascended Lord. The giving of the Spirit is the proof of the accepted work of Christ in the heavenly tabernacle, and the 'given Spirit's indwelling the believer is the indelible assurance of our eternal accpetance by the Father. (emphasis is author's)

It is the author's desire that this book would be of benefit to those who desire to understand "What does the Scripture say?" May the watchword Sola Scriptura have real meaning in the church. (emphasis author's)

 

[Beckworth]

Your in effect saying Jesus failed. Paul says different

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

It does not say he might complete the work

It does not say he will only complete it if the person allows him to

It says we can be confident that he will complete it.

You were given eternal life when you were born again (if you were really born again)

eternal is forever. it can not be lost. because its not based on you or your ability, it is based 100% on God and his work.

Eternal life is given to those who are faithful til death Revelation 3:10. It is conditional upon a person “ABIDING IN CHRIST, “being faithful til death, on Christian’s who KEEP CHRIST’S WORDS -John 8:51- anyone who KEEPS MY WORD shall never see death. That is a CONDITIONAL PROMISE. Just because a person dies not believe that or refuse to acknowledge it or accept that fact dies NOT make it any less true.

How do you know any one of them lost their salvation? Did the Lord reveal that to you, because only Deity say for sure, so how did YOU know what you THINNK that you know?



I agree with you that what Jesus spoke to those under the Kingdom Gospel was indeed true to them and will be true to those in the tribulation period. Yes. They will have to have "endured unto the end," just as it is written. Those to whom Jesus spoke were still under the Law, and the tribulation people, including Israel, will have to endure the within the Kingdom Gospel unto the end so that they SHALL be saved.

When you fail to rightly divide the word of TRUTH, that TRUTH from TRUTH, not TRUTH from falsehood. The Gospel of Grace is not what they were under back then, and the tribulation people will also NOT be under the Gospel of Grace.

We are under the Gospel of Grace, not works:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This reality spoken here by Paul under the Gospel of Grace was not in force for those to whom Jesus was speaking concerning that seed parable. Some of the seed started to grow but were choked out...that was for those under the Kingdom Gospel to whom Jesus was speaking at that time because the MYSTERY had not yet been revealed and empowered. They were required to ENDURE unto the END. We today are transformed, which is a reality that was not in force for those people at that time, nor will it be available to those in the tribulation.

So, unless you were looking at people who were under the Kingdom Gospel, which you were not, you saw not one soul that lost his or her salvation. That's just confused thinking on many people's part today because of their failure to rightly divide the word of truth. Perhaps you observed people who did not ever TRULY believe in the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, and who later went back into the sinful life without having been transformed through a true, saving faith, but not one of them lost their salvation, unless you consider yourself Deity and therefore empowered to see down into their hearts, which, I hope you don't mind me saying, for which I have grave doubts.

MM

I know they lost their salvation by what the Bible tells me. It’s not from myself at all. God tells us we shall know them by their “FRUITS.” It’s not hard or impossible to know someone is unfaithful when they “quit” God and the“church.” When they no longer want anything to do with God or His people. When they are openly living in sin and refuse to repent. I have gone over those scriptures already that show they are lost unless they repent.

 

[Beckworth]

Your in effect saying Jesus failed. Paul says different

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

It does not say he might complete the work

It does not say he will only complete it if the person allows him to

It says we can be confident that he will complete it.

You were given eternal life when you were born again (if you were really born again)

eternal is forever. it can not be lost. because its not based on you or your ability, it is based 100% on God and his work.

I think you mis- read my post. I NEVER said Jesus failed. I was arguing very strongly against that.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

To the first question, we have to let God answer that for us. What I think makes no difference. What God says in His word is all that matters. The born again Christian is faithful until they sin and refuse to repent. The Christians in Ephesus had “FALLEN from grace verse 5. They had LEFT their first love verse 4. God tells them to “REPENT.” Repentance means to be sorry for your sins and also means to

But this is not true. And if it was. we would be under law not under grace.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

He never explained how he knows that anyone else has lost their salvation, what it looks like, how one is UNborn again, and how one is UNsealed by Holy Spirit. Given that the Lord never, at any time, revealed those possibilities anywhere in His word, this shows that wishful thinking takes a higher place in the theologies of some.

MM

Thats because he can not explain any of those things. because non of them could ever happen.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Eternal life is given to those who are faithful til death Revelation 3:10.

No it is given to those who look to the cross in faith (john 3)

[/quote] It is conditional upon a person “ABIDING IN CHRIST, “being faithful til death, on Christian’s who KEEP CHRIST’S WORDS -John 8:51- anyone who KEEPS MY WORD shall never see death. That is a CONDITIONAL PROMISE. Just because a person dies not believe that or refuse to acknowledge it or accept that fact dies NOT make it any less true.[/quote]
Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.

I know they lost their salvation by what the Bible tells me. It’s not from myself at all. God tells us we shall know them by their “FRUITS.” It’s not hard or impossible to know someone is unfaithful when they “quit” God and the“church.” When they no longer want anything to do with God or His people. When they are openly living in sin and refuse to repent. I have gone over those scriptures already that show they are lost unless they repent.

Those people returned to their vomit, because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.

Your describing make believers, not true believers.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I think you mis- read my post. I NEVER said Jesus failed. I was arguing very strongly against that.

I know what you said.

But you can not say Jesus never failed. when in reality, Jesus failed.

Why don;t you look at the passage I posted and refut it. and not tell me I misquated you. when I did not

 

[Jimbone]

Do you know of someone who thinks they can save themselves? I've met them, and they are the ones who think that their works will suffice. Others think that no man can, of his own volition cry out to the Lord for salvation in faith, or that they can't possess faith unless it is given to them. All of that are concoctions mf mere men, not what is found in scripture.

MM

Yes I do know a LOT of them here. Everyone that says that we can lose salvation has to believe it is their obedience that saves them. Not Gods grace, their ability to follow the law close enough. I'm not sure how the mental gymnastics work that makes them blind to this, but ANYONE that preaches the false gospel of "temporary, uncertain salvation" that is basically a type of divine probation, believes that they're saving themselves by behaving well enough. Period. A false gospel about a powerless false god.

Has nothing at all to do with the POWERFUL King I know, seated at the right hand of God now, reigning until every enemy has been made a footstool for His feet, that saves us, transforms us, guides us, and keeps us 100% by His grace and power, for His glory and purpose. My God could beat up their false weak god.

 

[Rufus]

Logically, it doesn't since the Abrahamic Covenant is INCLUSIVE. Therefore, by definition, no one is excluded or replaced. You just don't understand God's covenants, most particularly the Abrahamic Covenant of Promise which preceded the Law... or to even put a finer point on it the Abrahamic Covenant and Abraham's Four Seeds. And it's from this misunderstanding that all the confusion and errors stem -- with both Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. Both of these systems are replete with falsehoods!

Throwing in modern concepts of "inclusiveness" is great for the liberal mindset, but it fails to recognize the divisions that still exist, in that we in the body of Christ are NOT partakers of the Abrahamic promises since those promises were ONLY for the nation Israel, the bloodline descendants of Abraham. The ownership of that land over there is not something of which we in Christ will be partakers. Period. We will be removed before Israel FINALLY possess ALL the land promised to Abraham and his descendants.

Muddying those waters only gets one's feet dirty with falsehoods.

MM[/QUOTE]

Read the book of Galatians some day and get Paul's inspired take on the Abrahamic Covenant. Of course, the covenant was all-inclusive. What part of Gen 12:3 don't you get? "ALL PEOPLES (plural) on earth will be blessed through you." Now read Gal 3:6 ff. for Paul's inspired on the covenant. The nation of Israel was the exclusive nation chosen by God through which all the peoples of the earth would be blessed.

 

[Magenta]

I know they lost their salvation by what the Bible tells me. It’s not from myself at all. God tells us we shall know them by their “FRUITS.” It’s not hard or impossible to know someone is unfaithful when they “quit” God and the“church.” When they no longer want anything to do with God or His people. When they are openly living in sin and refuse to repent. I have gone over those scriptures already that show they are lost unless they repent.

1 John 2:19

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.