Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Why would anyone "look to himself" for salvation? By the same token no one is saved without responding to the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). But you have no use for the Gospel.
The Gospel is the means that God uses to grant faith which is a gift of grace (Eph 2:8) to His people.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith in and of itself does not save anyone.

saved.jpg
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,838
418
83
If you do not see yourself as being lost then you will never be granted to know why Christ came into this world to save those who know they are lost, for God resists the proud and only gives grace to the humble.
Prior to salvation? Part of being lost was not knowing that you are lost... Frustrated and confused maybe. But knowing we are lost?
To know you are lost, would mean that you already know that you have a home and can not find your way back to it.

Before we were saved we could not know Heaven was real, and our home is Heaven.

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there,
the Lord Jesus Christ."
Philippians 3:20

What we can know before salvation?
Is that we sin. That we are sinners.
That, we can know!

We can only realize we were lost after regeneration.
The Holy Spirit enables us to see what we could not see prior to salvation.

grace and peace ..................
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Stop deflecting an answer the question!

Does God love those He casts into Hell?
They cast themselves into Hell, so Yes He does.

11 As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live

33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
I was a sinner. I had sinned.I had developed all kinds of sin habits since going astray from the innocence I had in the womb and at birth, as I modeled my behaviour on the behaviour of those around me. I needed a Saviour and a healer. I still do when I miss perfection.. Jesus came into the world to save me. But I was not born with a sin nature and already condemned to hell. Nowhere does the Bible say I was born a sinner. I became a sinner.
Does conception occur before birth?

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

You would be wise to consider the other verses below because Christ only came for those who know they need a doctor and you were born with a cancer on your soul which only He can cure.

70 Bible Verses About Original Sin
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,838
418
83
Stop deflecting an answer the question!

Does God love those He casts into Hell?

Only when you p_ss Him off.. :p

The discipline of God can be hell to go through....


......
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Yes. God IS love. Everything He does IS love.
God is indeed love but because God loves justice He must cast the wicked into Hell.

Isa_61:8a "For I, the LORD, love justice;

If God did not compromise His perfect justice in sending Christ to be killed then what makes you think He will compromise it for anyone else including yourself?

It is because God is love that He perfectly hates evil and must punish it.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
God is indeed love but because God loves justice He must cast the wicked into Hell.

Isa_61:8a "For I, the LORD, love justice;

If God did not compromise His perfect justice in sending Christ to be killed then what makes you think He will compromise it for anyone else including yourself?

It is because God is love that He perfectly hates evil and must punish it.
Why are you assuming I expect God to compromise his justice for me?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
Does conception occur before birth?

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

You would be wise to consider the other verses below because Christ only came for those who know they need a doctor and you were born with a cancer on your soul which only He can cure.

70 Bible Verses About Original Sin
If I was brought forth in New Zealand and my mother conceived me in a hotel room. Do these facts mean I had New Zealand in me from conception; and I had a hotel in me when I was born?

You should try applying basic reading comprehension when reading the Bible.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Prior to salvation? Part of being lost was not knowing that you are lost... Frustrated and confused maybe. But knowing we are lost?
To know you are lost, would mean that you already know that you have a home and can not find your way back to it.

Before we were saved we could not know Heaven was real, and our home is Heaven.

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there,
the Lord Jesus Christ."
Philippians 3:20

What we can know before salvation?
Is that we sin. That we are sinners.
That, we can know!

We can only realize we were lost after regeneration.
The Holy Spirit enables us to see what we could not see prior to salvation.

grace and peace ..................
Luk_19:10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Agreed, the lost are never truly humbled to know how lost they are before regeneration but many come to Christ not realising how lost they really are and end up falling away as Christ warned about in the Parable of the Sower and so it is the duty of those who preach the Gospel to proclaim that all men are indeed lost and trust that the Holy Spirit would convict them of their state to see their desperate need of Christ.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
They cast themselves into Hell, so Yes He does.

11 As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live

33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
It is true that the soul that sins shall die (Eze 18:4, 20) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) but the Scripture below says that it is God who casts people into Hell.

Luk 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

God indeed has no pleasure in the death of the wicked who repent, which is the context of the verses in Ezekiel 18 and 33 which was written to those who thought they were beyond the possibility of repenting.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

For those who think that God sincerely desires the salvation of every person, they need to deal with the words of Christ below who rejoiced at the truth being hidden from some and said that it was good.

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

To say that God loves those He justly casts into Hell would deny the doctrine of predestination which is clearly taught in Scripture and make God who does not change out to be double minded and be in contradiction to the 18 verses below that declare God's hatred for the wicked reprobate. God's love, like His mercy and grace are like Himself, eternal and not temporary.

God loves those who love Him and they only do so because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, 1 Jn 4:19).

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them (Lev. 20:23).
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you (Lev. 26:30).​
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee (Deut. 18:12).​
For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God (Deut. 25:16).​
And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters (Deut. 32:19).​
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man (Ps. 5:5-6).​
For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth (Ps. 10:3).​
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth (Ps. 11:5).​
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16-19).​
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished (Prov. 16:4-5).​
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord (Prov. 17:15).​
The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein (Prov. 22:14).​
Behold, ye [i.e., idols] are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you (Isa. 41:24).​
Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it (Jer. 12:8).​
All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house (Hos. 9:15).​
Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me (Zech. 11:8).​
I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel (Mal. 1:2-5).​
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:13).​
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
If I was brought forth in New Zealand and my mother conceived me in a hotel room. Do these facts mean I had New Zealand in me from conception; and I had a hotel in me when I was born?

You should try applying basic reading comprehension when reading the Bible.

If you refuse to listen to Scripture then then there is no further purpose in warning you any further as to do so would only be me casting pearls before swine and lead to your greater condemnation if God does not grant you grace to see the offense of your sin against His holiness.

I sincerely pray that God gives you absolutely no peace until you are humbled by Him to cry out for mercy and hope it doesn't take a tragedy in your life to do so.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:13).​
Esau happened in Genesis, written in the minor prophets and later in Romans. But when Esau was born from Isaac this is nowhere written. It's written "AFTER" Esau rejected the Birthright which was the Promise of God.

So it's best to keep that in the context it belongs to and not how you are choosing it to be.


God made each one of us in the womb like David wrote. He loves us all.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Esau happened in Genesis, written in the minor prophets and later in Romans. But when Esau was born from Isaac this is nowhere written. It's written "AFTER" Esau rejected the Birthright which was the Promise Land of God.

So it's best to keep that in the context it belongs to and not how you are choosing it to be.


God made each one of us in the womb like David wrote. He loves us all.
God does not and never has loved those whom He justly casts into Hell. You obviously did not read all of the verses which proclaim God's hatred for the reprobate or yet understand that His love is eternal and is confirmed only in those whom He saves.

pink God's love.jpg
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
God does not and never has loved those whom He justly casts into Hell. You obviously did not read all of the verses which proclaim God's hatred for the reprobate or yet understand that His love is eternal and is confirmed only in those whom He saves.

View attachment 261619
Jesus only hung out with Sinners. You don't spend time with people you hate.

19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
God does not and never has loved those whom He justly casts into Hell. You obviously did not read all of the verses which proclaim God's hatred for the reprobate or yet understand that His love is eternal and is confirmed only in those whom He saves.

View attachment 261619
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

He did not say it because He SHOWED it.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Jesus only hung out with Sinners. You don't spend time with people you hate.

19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."
Everyone is born hating God which makes the love of God even more amazing when it is realised that Christ died for any of those who hated Him.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

2Co_9:15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Everyone is born hating God which makes the love of God even more amazing when it is realised that Christ died for any of those who hated Him.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

2Co_9:15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!
But when Jesus, GOD, was here, only those who were supposed to be of God hated Him.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

He did not say it because He SHOWED it.
Which sinners did Christ die for? Did Christ die for the sheep or the goats?

Joh 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Joh 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Which sinners did Christ die for? Did Christ die for the sheep or the goats?
First of all GOATS are not mentioned.
And the requirement to be a Sheep is verse 9.

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture