Predestination is misunderstood...

Yes, I can agree here, well said.








["IN Christ" is a NT designation... it does not apply to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints...; For the readers: see the extra verses I placed in my previous post, re: "[to] CREATE IN Him..." (and related verses, such as "For we are His workmanship, CREATED IN Christ Jesus..."), not applicable to OT saints, etc... as I'd mentioned]

The term "create" in the context of Ephesians 2:10 and its Hebrew and Greek roots provide insight into how the Bible presents the relationship between humanity and Christ.
Hebrew Root ("barāʾ"):
The Hebrew root "brʾ" conveys ideas of creating, making, forming, or producing something new out of raw materials

Greek Root ("ktizō"):
The Greek verb "ktszō" signifies founding, establishing, constructing, or building something

In Ephesians 2:10, the phrase "created in Christ Jesus" employs the Greek verb "ktizō," indicating that believers are formed, established, constructed, or built in Christ Jesus. This suggests that believers are intimately connected to Christ and find their identity and purpose within Him.

Furthermore, the phrase "for good works, which God prepared beforehand" implies that these works are not random acts but rather intentional creations planned by God for believers to fulfill their destiny in Christ.
This passage does not apply to Old Testament saints, tribulation saints, or millennial saints because it specifically mentions "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" (emphasis added), implying that this designation applies uniquely to New Testament believers.

^ [to go with my previous post... Post #1241]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 uses a distinct "chosen" word:


2Th 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen [G138 - *haireō / heilato ] you [or, as in some versions "hath chosen you firstfruit," which I am inclined to believe is accurate] to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.





--*G138 - *haireō / heilato - "†αἱρέομαι hairéomai, hahee-reh'-om-ahee; probably akin to G142 ['airo']"


--so then, G142 - "airo" - "Definition: to raise, take up, lift; Usage: I raise, lift up, take away, remove." [this, quoted from BibleHub - https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm ]






[note: if this verse does say "chosen you FIRSTFRUIT," I believe this is a DISTINCT "firstfruit" from that of Rev14:4; and seeing as there are TWO DISTINCT "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23, Rev14:4 (re: the 144,000) corresponds to the latter OF THESE TWO (Lev23:17, where it states, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<--THIS is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/US)]

They hear but do not understand. They see yet perceive not. This is the estate of the natural man.

Many people share your view.

Has anyone ever gave this Much thought


Galatians 5:22-23

New International Version



22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Each fruit is a seed,

You are first saved By a seed called love.

Leading to the final seed called self control, where by then you receive salvation.

The description "They hear but do not understand. They see yet perceive not" corresponds to the condition of the natural man described in the Bible. Two relevant passages are:

Isaiah 6:9-10: "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep listening, but do not comprehend; keep seeing, but do not perceive.' Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

These passages describe the condition of the natural man, who cannot understand spiritual realities without the help of the Holy Spirit. The natural man is unable to perceive the truth of God's Word despite hearing and seeing evidence of it. Only when someone becomes born again and receives the Holy Spirit can they begin to understand and perceive spiritual truths (John 3:3-8).

Which concurs with you.
J.

You know the gospel is the power of God to save. He gives hearing to the dead and they understand the message, and believe.

I agree! = )

Most will not @TheDivineWatermark

Agreed.
Agreed.
Pretty much agree with your overall point.
Yes!









On a related note... we are presently "betrothed" (2Cor11:2);

once we are "caught up"... "SO shall we ever be WITH [/UNIONed-with] the Lord"... the "Marriage" itself takes place.


In Gen2:22, it says this, "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." (and then Adam said what he says in v.23)... and this took place on the "sixth day" (i.e. prior to "the seventh day [/the last day]"), and I believe likewise, for us, will take place prior to "the seventh Day/seventh Millennium [/the last Day]" which itself commences with the "IN THE NIGHT [/trib yrs]" prior to His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, corresponding with the words in Lk12:36-37,38,40 [+ parallel passage], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom... THEN "the meal [G347; see Mt8:11+parallel]; the "saints" in that Lk12 passage [+Mt24:42-51 parallel] are NOT whom He is coming "TO MARRY" [tho they are indeed "saved" persons / saints / believers / righteous / wise]... and THEY never lift off the earth! They are present there upon His RETURN there! They are not the "Bride / Wife" though!])

.... I've read Pilgrim's Progress 3 times and am contemplating a 4th

What a classic!
Johann.

... that's beside pt 2 which I've read twice ... some English saints make me very proud.

Agreed.

The text states:

"[Lamb] SLAIN FROM [apo] the foundation of the world"


It does not state:

"[names] WRITTEN BEFORE [pro] the foundation of the world"



[the esv translation of this verse, for example, is inaccurate... and that's unfortunate because it confuses many people]








Added note: there is indeed a distinction between the phrases (in Scripture):

--FROM [APO] the foundation of the world; and

--BEFORE [PRO] the foundation of the world





[and these are matters that impact the Subject of this thread, also]

The only state of being unmerited is yours, there is nothing unmerited about God's state of condition.

I'm saved because I deserve an unmerited favour,.is like saying it's not my fault who I am.

Then all a person does is take the same mentality through the rest of his walk.

No when your out of favour, favour has to be granted, it does not get granted because a person believes it not my fault.

He was taught right from wrong as a child.

Children have angels who look back on the face of God.

So what are those children saved by at this point.

What your listening to is a load miss used church doctrine

The same people who say being baptised has no part of being saved.

Amen-
John Bunyan, the author of "The Pilgrim's Progress," was a Reformed Christian. He was a Puritan preacher and writer who lived in England during the 17th century. Bunyan's theology was heavily influenced by the Reformed tradition, which emphasized the sovereignty of God, the depravity of man, and the necessity of salvation through faith in Christ alone. His writings reflect these theological themes, and "The Pilgrim's Progress" is often regarded as a classic example of Reformed literature.

He was imprisoned for twelve years for preaching the Word of God, and while in prison, he wrote "The Pilgrim's Progress" as a way to continue preaching via the written word. The book is an allegory, a story in which nearly every fictional character, scene, and situation is a stand-in for real truth, real people, and places. It tells the story of Christian, an "every person" man seeking salvation on a pilgrimage to Heaven. Along the way, Christian encounters obstacles that test his faith and characters that help show him the difference between right and wrong.

The book is regarded as one of the most significant works of theological fiction in English literature and a progenitor of the novel. It has been translated into more than two hundred languages, including eighty in Africa alone, and has never been out of print since it was first published in 1678.

Shalom @Evmur
J.

Thank you.

It is good to know someone else on my road to health that can relate!

Another point to consider.

Today the groom *chooses* his Bride.
The bride does not choose the groom.

In some ancient days the parents choose a bride for their son.

With Jesus? Ephesians 1:4..
The Father chose which believers were to be His Son's bride.



God wants marriages to be a wonderful expression of life... no matter how bad life is around them.
That is why God says we are to have joy in spite of being in the devil's world.

grace and peace....

The issue is did they do this because they were born again. Or did they do it because they heard the word and recieved. As apprised to remain in unbelief?
according to Gods character it had to be the second