Predestination is misunderstood...

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe I said that. I said, that out of all people God knew would believe?
He only chose some out of all He knew would believe? To be In Christ.

Ephesians 1:4 - The choice was for who was to be His Bride. Not who to save. That was my point.

Yes, I can agree here, well said.








["IN Christ" is a NT designation... it does not apply to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints...; For the readers: see the extra verses I placed in my previous post, re: "[to] CREATE IN Him..." (and related verses, such as "For we are His workmanship, CREATED IN Christ Jesus..."), not applicable to OT saints, etc... as I'd mentioned]

 

[Johann]

["IN Christ" is a NT designation... it does not apply to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints...; For the readers: see the extra verses I placed in my previous post, re: "[to] CREATE IN Him..." (and related verses, such as "For we are His workmanship, CREATED IN Christ Jesus..."), not applicable to OT saints, etc... as I'd mentioned]

The term "create" in the context of Ephesians 2:10 and its Hebrew and Greek roots provide insight into how the Bible presents the relationship between humanity and Christ.
Hebrew Root ("barāʾ"):
The Hebrew root "brʾ" conveys ideas of creating, making, forming, or producing something new out of raw materials

Greek Root ("ktizō"):
The Greek verb "ktszō" signifies founding, establishing, constructing, or building something

In Ephesians 2:10, the phrase "created in Christ Jesus" employs the Greek verb "ktizō," indicating that believers are formed, established, constructed, or built in Christ Jesus. This suggests that believers are intimately connected to Christ and find their identity and purpose within Him.

Furthermore, the phrase "for good works, which God prepared beforehand" implies that these works are not random acts but rather intentional creations planned by God for believers to fulfill their destiny in Christ.
This passage does not apply to Old Testament saints, tribulation saints, or millennial saints because it specifically mentions "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" (emphasis added), implying that this designation applies uniquely to New Testament believers.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [to go with my previous post... Post #1241]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 uses a distinct "chosen" word:


2Th 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen [G138 - *haireō / heilato ] you [or, as in some versions "hath chosen you firstfruit," which I am inclined to believe is accurate] to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.





--*G138 - *haireō / heilato - "†αἱρέομαι hairéomai, hahee-reh'-om-ahee; probably akin to G142 ['airo']"


--so then, G142 - "airo" - "Definition: to raise, take up, lift; Usage: I raise, lift up, take away, remove." [this, quoted from BibleHub - https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm ]






[note: if this verse does say "chosen you FIRSTFRUIT," I believe this is a DISTINCT "firstfruit" from that of Rev14:4; and seeing as there are TWO DISTINCT "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23, Rev14:4 (re: the 144,000) corresponds to the latter OF THESE TWO (Lev23:17, where it states, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<--THIS is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/US)]

 

[Cameron143]

The lost have ears. I see them on almost everyone. And the lost can hear. I talk to lost people often, and they hear fine.
The lost can hear the gospel and understand it and reject it; or hear the gospel and understand it and accept it; or hear the gospel and misunderstand it, and reject it; or hear a mangled misrepresentation of the gospel and accept that; or hear a mangled misrepresentation of the gospel and reject that. But one thing is clear, they do have ears to hear with.

They hear but do not understand. They see yet perceive not. This is the estate of the natural man.

 

[Cameron143]

IMO You have the explanations of the gift and the indwelling completely backwards. Those who have not the Spirit are none of His. If the Holy Spirit is indwelling, the person experiences victory. Rom. 8

Many people share your view.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Has anyone ever gave this Much thought


Galatians 5:22-23

New International Version



22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Each fruit is a seed,

You are first saved By a seed called love.

Leading to the final seed called self control, where by then you receive salvation.

 

[Johann]

They hear but do not understand. They see yet perceive not. This is the estate of the natural man.

The description "They hear but do not understand. They see yet perceive not" corresponds to the condition of the natural man described in the Bible. Two relevant passages are:

Isaiah 6:9-10: "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep listening, but do not comprehend; keep seeing, but do not perceive.' Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

These passages describe the condition of the natural man, who cannot understand spiritual realities without the help of the Holy Spirit. The natural man is unable to perceive the truth of God's Word despite hearing and seeing evidence of it. Only when someone becomes born again and receives the Holy Spirit can they begin to understand and perceive spiritual truths (John 3:3-8).

Which concurs with you.
J.

 

[Cameron143]

Then again, no one can be saved

Because it is required that we recieve him to become a child of God (John 1)

You know the gospel is the power of God to save. He gives hearing to the dead and they understand the message, and believe.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This passage does not apply to Old Testament saints, tribulation saints, or millennial saints because it specifically mentions "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" (emphasis added), implying that this designation applies uniquely to New Testament believers.

I agree! = )

 

[Johann]

I agree! = )

Most will not @TheDivineWatermark

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

PennEd said:
It sounds like you are saying that a saved person doesn’t have to be in Christ.

Moses was not. David was not. And,John the Baptist was not.

Agreed.

Do you know what it means to be the Bride of Christ?
Not everyone's resurrection body is going to be like His and His Bride's.

Some will have their everlasting Home on the New Earth.
The Kingdom the Jews were waiting for was to be on the New Earth, not in Heaven.

Agreed.

The Church on the other hand has its citizenship in Heaven!

Pretty much agree with your overall point.

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior ​

from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables ​

him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly ​

bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." ​

​

Philippians 3:20-21​

Yes!









On a related note... we are presently "betrothed" (2Cor11:2);

once we are "caught up"... "SO shall we ever be WITH [/UNIONed-with] the Lord"... the "Marriage" itself takes place.


In Gen2:22, it says this, "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." (and then Adam said what he says in v.23)... and this took place on the "sixth day" (i.e. prior to "the seventh day [/the last day]"), and I believe likewise, for us, will take place prior to "the seventh Day/seventh Millennium [/the last Day]" which itself commences with the "IN THE NIGHT [/trib yrs]" prior to His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, corresponding with the words in Lk12:36-37,38,40 [+ parallel passage], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom... THEN "the meal [G347; see Mt8:11+parallel]; the "saints" in that Lk12 passage [+Mt24:42-51 parallel] are NOT whom He is coming "TO MARRY" [tho they are indeed "saved" persons / saints / believers / righteous / wise]... and THEY never lift off the earth! They are present there upon His RETURN there! They are not the "Bride / Wife" though!])

 

[Evmur]

Yes-Scripture affirms that our rewards and losses in eternity are indeed linked to our lifestyle and actions on earth. While all believers will reach their eternal home, the Bible indicates that not all will reign with Christ or receive the same rewards.

Rewards and Losses Based on Lifestyle
1 Corinthians 3:12-15: This passage highlights that believers will be rewarded based on their actions and choices on earth. Some will receive rewards for their faithful service, while others may suffer loss due to their works being burned up.

2 Corinthians 5:10: This verse emphasizes that all believers will give an account of their lives to the Lord, and they will be judged according to their works, leading to the gain or loss of eternal rewards.

Matthew 25:23: Jesus' parable in this passage illustrates varying levels of reward based on faithful stewardship. Those who are faithful with what they have been given will receive greater responsibilities and rewards.

Revelation 2:23: This verse underscores that God searches hearts and minds, repaying each individual according to their deeds. It emphasizes the importance of our actions in determining our eternal rewards.

Eternal Rewards in Heaven
1 Corinthians 9:25-27: The Victor's Crown is awarded to those who exercise self-discipline and focus on activities with eternal value, reflecting faithful service to God.

1 Peter 5:4: The Crown of Glory is given to faithful shepherds and leaders who serve God's people diligently, highlighting the importance of leadership roles within the church.

James 1:12; Revelation 2:10: The Crown of Life is granted to those who endure persecution, temptation, and remain steadfast in their love for Christ, even in the face of martyrdom.

1 Thessalonians 2:19: The Crown of Rejoicing is bestowed upon those who lead others to Christ, emphasizing the significance of evangelism and discipleship in receiving heavenly rewards.

2 Timothy 4:8: The Crown of Righteousness awaits those who eagerly anticipate Christ's return and live a life dedicated to righteousness, looking forward to receiving their reward from the Lord.



Depends-are we sealed with the Holy Spirit? Ever read Pilgrims Progress?

.... I've read Pilgrim's Progress 3 times and am contemplating a 4th

 

[Johann]

.... I've read Pilgrim's Progress 3 times and am contemplating a 4th

What a classic!
Johann.

 

[Evmur]

What a classic!
Johann.

... that's beside pt 2 which I've read twice ... some English saints make me very proud.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Evmur said:
Our names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the world began ... isn't that WONDERFUL? doesn't it fill you with joy?

No scripture says that our names were written before the world began.
They-were-written in-the-book of-the-Lamb-slain-from-the-foundation-of-the-world.

Agreed.

The text states:

"[Lamb] SLAIN FROM [apo] the foundation of the world"


It does not state:

"[names] WRITTEN BEFORE [pro] the foundation of the world"



[the esv translation of this verse, for example, is inaccurate... and that's unfortunate because it confuses many people]








Added note: there is indeed a distinction between the phrases (in Scripture):

--FROM [APO] the foundation of the world; and

--BEFORE [PRO] the foundation of the world





[and these are matters that impact the Subject of this thread, also]

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

No, he offers it to everyone, Only those who ask for it will recieve it.

And yes, we are saved by Gods good will through unmerited favor


Why would you deny they are both the same thing?

Gods good will was sending his son to the cross. So he could offer favor to thew world..

Unmerited just means it can not be merited. as apposed to merited favor which would be a wage or reward.

The only state of being unmerited is yours, there is nothing unmerited about God's state of condition.

I'm saved because I deserve an unmerited favour,.is like saying it's not my fault who I am.

Then all a person does is take the same mentality through the rest of his walk.

No when your out of favour, favour has to be granted, it does not get granted because a person believes it not my fault.

He was taught right from wrong as a child.

Children have angels who look back on the face of God.

So what are those children saved by at this point.

What your listening to is a load miss used church doctrine

The same people who say being baptised has no part of being saved.

 

[Johann]

... that's beside pt 2 which I've read twice ... some English saints make me very proud.

Amen-
John Bunyan, the author of "The Pilgrim's Progress," was a Reformed Christian. He was a Puritan preacher and writer who lived in England during the 17th century. Bunyan's theology was heavily influenced by the Reformed tradition, which emphasized the sovereignty of God, the depravity of man, and the necessity of salvation through faith in Christ alone. His writings reflect these theological themes, and "The Pilgrim's Progress" is often regarded as a classic example of Reformed literature.

He was imprisoned for twelve years for preaching the Word of God, and while in prison, he wrote "The Pilgrim's Progress" as a way to continue preaching via the written word. The book is an allegory, a story in which nearly every fictional character, scene, and situation is a stand-in for real truth, real people, and places. It tells the story of Christian, an "every person" man seeking salvation on a pilgrimage to Heaven. Along the way, Christian encounters obstacles that test his faith and characters that help show him the difference between right and wrong.

The book is regarded as one of the most significant works of theological fiction in English literature and a progenitor of the novel. It has been translated into more than two hundred languages, including eighty in Africa alone, and has never been out of print since it was first published in 1678.

Shalom @Evmur
J.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

One more thing Brother , and I wont mess up the thread no more...Egg yolk blended up in the coffee with a bit of butter makes the coffee creamy , and it is also a great way to get the yolk into your eating plan...I look forward to your update on blood work...Please message me to let me know as I am praying for you...

Thank you.

It is good to know someone else on my road to health that can relate!

 

[Genez]

[sometimes I don't realize what thread I've been posting in... so I wanted to address the OP]



YES! I pretty much agree!

I skimmed hastily through this thread, and though I might word a few things a little differently, I basically agree with this point (regarding what Eph1:4 is communicating). It pertains solely to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (also known as "the Bride," presently "betrothed"... meaning, all those coming to faith in Christ "IN THIS PRESENT AGE [singular]"... between Pentecost and "our Rapture" basically).

It does NOT pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time-frames: so, not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints.




(where it says, "for to make/create [ktizō ] in himself of twain one new [altogether new] man, so making peace," it refers to, in "this present age [singular]"... not all those [believers / saints] of other time-periods; and it continues on to say, "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" [key phrase "in one body"]).



So, yes, I pretty much agree with the quote at top! = )




[ I'll try to go through this thread again, and comment briefly where I agree... when I get some free time]

Another point to consider.

Today the groom *chooses* his Bride.
The bride does not choose the groom.

In some ancient days the parents choose a bride for their son.

With Jesus? Ephesians 1:4..
The Father chose which believers were to be His Son's bride.

​

​

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

God wants marriages to be a wonderful expression of life... no matter how bad life is around them.
That is why God says we are to have joy in spite of being in the devil's world.

grace and peace....

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You left out...they heard this. That is the hearing given...the understanding. Their mind was engaged by God. They were pricked in their hearts...their hearts were circumcised. Then,...what shall we do? Their wills were affected.
All this happened inwardly to convert them. God was already working in them. They made the choice to do as Peter said freely after all this occurred. 3,000 were saved. Unfortunately, many more thousands who heard the same message, who God did not give hearing to or prick their hearts remained unaffected though the heard and witnessed the same thing.
God adds to the church daily in the same way. Jesus said He will build His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

The issue is did they do this because they were born again. Or did they do it because they heard the word and recieved. As apprised to remain in unbelief?
according to Gods character it had to be the second