Predestination is misunderstood...

That's a little off-topic. All I'll say on that topic is that since Christ is the antitype to Israel (by contrasts and comparisons), then all believers (Jews and Gentiles) comprise the Israel of God. God didn't "replace" Israel with the Church, rather he formally included the Gentiles with Israel in the New Covenant, which fulfills that portion of the Abrahamic Covenant that promised Abraham that he would become the " [spiritual] father of many nations".

I like this post. If we think about this a bit we can see that before Israel was birthed into a Nation, it was first a Promise to Abraham. And as both physical and spiritual descendants of Abraham, Israel, will always be a literal presence of his lineage.

Not really off topic-

The statement "Since Christ is the antitype to Israel (by contrasts and comparisons), then all believers (Jews and Gentiles) comprise the Israel of God" is generally supported by certain biblical passages and theologies. However, it is essential to clarify that this perspective differs slightly from the traditional replacement theology, which posits that the church replaced Israel entirely.

Here are some reasons why the statement is not incorrect:

Paul compares Christ and Israel using typological language, implying that Christ is the fulfillment of Israel's promises and prophecies.

Both Jews and Gentiles are incorporated into the new covenant community, which includes the promise of becoming children of Abraham.
The term "Israel of God" is used in Galatians 6:16 to describe both Jews and Gentiles who belong to Christ.

Despite these points, there are nuances to consider:

The inclusion of Gentiles does not imply that Israel as a nation has lost its special status or calling. Rather, it expands the scope of God's plan to include non-Jews.

There is ongoing debate about the extent to which the church replaces Israel in God's purposes. Some theologians argue that Israel still retains a unique role in God's plans, while others maintain that the church has superseded Israel.

In conclusion, the statement "Since Christ is the antitype to Israel (by contrasts and comparisons), then all believers (Jews and Gentiles) comprise the Israel of God" is generally supported by biblical passages and theologies, but it is essential to recognize the nuanced ways in which the church relates to Israel in God's plan.

Correct?

Faith is tested by trials. Gold is tested by fire.

1 Pet.1:7 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold

Something I've posted before on this subject.

Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.

Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.

Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).

This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.

Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Is there a difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew?

Interesting theological question-

The difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew is a matter of interpretation and theological debate. The Greek word for "foreknew" is "προέγνω" (proegnō), which means "to know beforehand."

In the context of Romans 8:29, the phrase "those whom He foreknew" refers to a group of people whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The question is whether God's foreknowledge refers to His knowledge of future events or His intimate knowledge of individuals.

Some argue that God's foreknowledge is based on His knowledge of future events, specifically, His knowledge of who will respond positively to the gospel.

This view is known as the prescient view. Others argue that God's foreknowledge is based on His intimate knowledge of individuals, specifically, His decision to set His love upon them. This view is known as the Augustinian or Calvinistic view.

The prescient view suggests that the ultimate deciding factor in our salvation is us, and God chooses us for salvation only after knowing how we will respond to His gospel. The Augustinian view, on the other hand, makes the Lord the final, decisive agent in salvation, and His choice establishes who will believe and who will not.

In conclusion, the difference between what God foreknew and who He foreknew is a matter of interpretation and theological debate. The interpretation hinges on whether God's foreknowledge refers to His knowledge of future events or His intimate knowledge of individuals.

Correct?

Hi, One and All:

I'm going to quote two passages that present very difficult problems for those here who believe that God saves those who he knew in eternity would in time and space come to faith. Of course, anyone who believes this is the case is already in trouble because this would mean God's will is contingent upon ours, which is diametrically opposed to scripture that teaches God works all things after the counsel of his own will.

Secondly, it would also imply that God's salvation is a quid pro quo arrangement, whereby the Son of God, on behalf of the Father, did his part in this world by taking on flesh, keeping his Father's law and living a sinless life, then with his death, burial and resurrection made salvation possible for everyone; so now anyone who wants to be saved must do his his part. He must keep his end of the deal. But again, this is opposed to scripture, since the New Covenant, unlike the Old, is a bilateral and unconditional covenant. There are no conditions to be fulfilled by man in Jeremiah 31 or Ezeziel 36.

Thirdly, this unbiblical view of predestination further implies that Jesus is only a potential Savior of the world, yet scripture portrays God and His Christ as the Savior of the world -- not merely potential saviors.

There are other problems, as well, but the three above will suffice for the moment. Now...in addition to these three, there is a fourth very sticky problem for those who misunderstand the great doctrine of predestination. And this problem has to do with the deaths of "innocents". And by innocents, I mean young children who die who never had a true knowledge of Good and Evil. And this becomes no small problem because the only logical inference we can make from the two passages I'm going to quote is that these "innocents" are destined for heaven. Yet....there is not one passage in scripture that I'm aware of that teaches that one needs to attain to only the level of innocence to inherit internal life. Whereas, there a plenty of passages that teach that nothing less than the righteousness of God is required for entrance into heaven! So...here are the two passages:

2 Sam 12:21-23
21 His servants asked him, "Why are you [king David] acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"

22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."
NIV

And,

Matt 18:2-4, 10, 14
2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven...10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven...14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
NIV

We know that young children can be saved. Some actually profess Christ and show an understanding of the gospel. On the other hand, many other children are not as spiritually precocious (Deut 1:39). In the case of David's infant, what could he have known about Good and Evil and the need for a savior? And Jesus did not qualify his statement in v14. He clearly said that his "Father in heaven is not willing than any of these should be lost."

And the Gr. term "theleema" for "will" is strong. It means determination, choice, purpose, decree. It is not God's will that any of these "little ones" (innocents) should perish. And David's son is such an example.

So, the problem #1 for those who believe that God's predestination is grounded in human actions (faith and/or repentance) that he has foreseen in eternity, is that God foresaw no such actions in the deaths of innocent children.

And problem #2 is that even though God does not will that any "little ones" should perish, is their "innocence" (lack of true knowledge of Good and Evil) alone sufficient to save them? Or is their salvation just like anyone else's who does have such knowledge and thus
grounded in the righteousness of Christ? Is Christ's righteousness also imputed to these "little ones"? According to the tenor of all scripture, and even numerous specific passages, I can only surmise that nothing less than Christ's perfect righteousness is required for anyone to enter heaven! Therefore, what possible merit could God see in the death of any innocent child who knows not good from bad, since the child's innocence cannot save him!?

Finally, problem #3: We must not forget that all innocent children are not innocent in another sense: Every single one us came into this world guilty of Adam's sin, since his sin is imputed to us all! The only way Adam's sin is removed from any us is by being in Christ and having his righteousness imputed to us! Then and only then are we not in Adam in any longer, for all our sins have been forgiven, including Adam's imputed sin. So, this truly makes the problem quite pernicious for those who base the doctrine of predestination on God's foreseeing something meritorious in us, e.g. faith. For the bottom line to the "innocence" of little ones who do not know right from wrong is that they're still not innocent! Conversely, there are zero problems if we just take the scriptures at face value that teach that God's will is not contingent on any of his free moral agents, and that the only merit any saint can boast of here on earth or in heaven is Christ's redemptive work and his imputed righteousness.

Romans 8:29 – Describes that God foreknew those who would be conformed to the image of His Son

However, this verse alone does not explicitly distinguish between God's foreknowledge and His choice. It implies that God's foreknowledge includes those whom He ultimately saves.
Arminian View: Interprets "foreknew" to mean that God looked forward in time and saw that certain individuals would believe and thus predestined them to salvation

This view maintains that God's foreknowledge is based on His foresight of human actions.
Calvinist View: Interprets "foreknew" to mean that God determined beforehand to save certain individuals due to His love for them

This view maintains that God's foreknowledge is based on His intimate knowledge of individuals and His desire to save them.
While neither the Bible nor specific verses directly contrast God's foreknowledge and His choice, the two theological positions (Arminian and Calvinist) offer differing perspectives on the nature of God's foreknowledge and its relation to His choice. Both positions agree that God foreknew those who would be saved, but they disagree on the basis of God's foreknowledge.

This is way above my pay grade-but I'm trying.

That certainly frames the argument. Some would even tie His foreknowledge to the fact that in knitting people together in the womb He has complete knowledge of the individual, including the choices each will make according to the way in which they were put together. Some would even couple this with the restrictions God sets upon people's lives by setting the bounds of their habitations...Acts 17...thus in how He guides the circumstances of people's lives.

Which-I think-would tie in with this-

The idea that God's foreknowledge is tied to His intimate knowledge of individuals, including their choices and the circumstances of their lives, is a perspective that has been debated among theologians.

While there are no specific verses that directly address this idea, there are several biblical passages that suggest God's sovereignty over human lives and His involvement in shaping their circumstances.

Psalm 139:13-16 – Describes God's intimate involvement in the formation of individuals in the womb and His knowledge of their days before they come to be.

Jeremiah 1:5 – God declares that He knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb and appointed him as a prophet to the nations.

Ephesians 1:4-5 – Describes how God chose believers in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestined them for adoption as sons and daughters.

Acts 17:26-27 – Paul declares that God determined the times and boundaries of people's lives so that they might seek Him and find Him.

Proverbs 16:9 – Describes how a person's steps are directed by the Lord, even though they may plan their own course.

These verses suggest that God is intimately involved in the formation of individuals and the circumstances of their lives, and that He has a plan and purpose for each person. While the idea that God's foreknowledge is tied to His knowledge of individuals and their circumstances is not explicitly stated in the Bible, it is consistent with the broader themes of God's sovereignty and involvement in human lives.

Deep calls unto deep-
Johann.

our confession
and what if your faith is not genuine.

Are you going to get purified anyway.

Gold is purified Inside a star.

Faith is purified by the spirit, once baptism of fire comes, Which is after your faith has been resurrected in Christ, and your sins have been washed clean, which happens after you are baptised with the holy spirit in water.

Jesus is the fountain of youth, and he is also the living water that lives in the holy spirit.

Upon confession of the lord, the spirit should come upon you, this is saved by faith.

But then faith must be completed with salvation. This happens when baptism of fire comes.

In between there is growth repentance trials of fire water baptism, all are important to faith.

To deny this would be, to be not genuine.
Should faith that is not genuine receive baptism of fire.

Well the punishment for sin is death.

To deny Christ is sin


To deny water baptism is to deny the lords commandments.

To Disobey the the lords commandments is sin.

The wages for sin is death.

Like a flame burning in my body, but the fuel is my evil or sin.After burning, my evil/sin is gone.I can feel a mass of smoke that I can't see leaving my body after burning.

So much for keeping it simple. Your faith is tested by trials. There is not such thing as a faith that is not real. Your either have faith or you don't. Trials reveal whether you have it or not. Faith doesn't have to be purified because it comes form the word. Rom.10:17

What you said, "faith is tested by fire" is incorrect. Own your mistakes.

It looks like Jer 1:5 harmonizes quite nicely with Rom 8:29. God could just as easily have said "before I formed the...I FOREKNEW you." The knowledge in both passages then speaks to a personal, intimate, affectionate knowledge of the object.

The phrase "faith is tested by fire" is a common expression that is often used to describe the process of refining one's faith through trials and difficulties. While this phrase is not a direct quote from the Bible, it is based on biblical principles.

The idea of testing one's faith through trials is found in several passages of the Bible, such as James 1:2-4, which says, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (ESV).

Similarly, 1 Peter 1:6-7 says, "In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (ESV).

These passages suggest that trials and difficulties can serve to refine and strengthen one's faith, much like fire purifies gold. While the phrase "faith is tested by fire" may not be a direct quote from the Bible, it is consistent with the biblical teaching that trials can produce perseverance, character, and hope in the lives of believers.

J.

Looks to me like?
If you could first take off your Calvinist thinking cap?
Maybe we can have a dialogue.

Its like having a conversation with "Mr. Censorship."
It appears in part that was what it was designed to accomplish.

Instead of declaring yourself as infallible?
Maybe, saying you have been told that this is such. Or, told that is such?

You might learn something and escape the trap .....

If you are not a Calvinist? What are you?


grace and patience.....

You argue by putting words in my mouth I did not say, so you can have something to oppose.
Please, stop using me as your hand puppet.

Did I mention anything about the penalty for sin? Jesus bore that on the Cross.

The only penalty for sinning for the one who is a believer is losing the filling of the Spirit.

Jeremiah 1:5 and Romans 8:29 Connected
Both Jeremiah 1:5 and Romans 8:29 speak of God's intimate knowledge and selection of individuals. In Jeremiah 1:5, God proclaims, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations" (NASB).

This verse demonstrates that God's knowledge extends beyond mere awareness to encompass a deep, personal, and affectionate familiarity with the individual.

Paul echoes this sentiment in Romans 8:29, stating, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" (NASB).

Like Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 8:29 underscores that God's knowledge involves more than merely knowing facts; it entails a profound intimacy and affection for the object of His knowledge.

Hebrew Insights
The Hebrew word translated as "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is "prognōskō", which means "to know beforehand" or "to anticipate"

. This term conveys the sense of God's prior knowledge and intention concerning those whom He chooses. The Hebrew root "ydāʻ" in Jeremiah 1:5 carries the connotation of forming something intricate or complex, suggesting that God's knowledge of Jeremiah included an appreciation of his unique qualities and potential

Conclusion
Jeremiah 1:5 and Romans 8:29 highlight God's intimate and affectionate knowledge of individuals, revealing a close bond between God and His people. The Hebrew and Greek language nuances further support the idea that God's knowledge goes far deeper than mere intellectual comprehension. Instead, it reflects a profound and personal attachment to the object of His knowledge.
J.

To "wash away evil" would require of us to learn sound doctrine on a steady basis, as it progressively replaces more and more wrong thinking that we acquired while growing up in the world system.

The Baptism of the Spirit washes away sin, not evil. For to wash away evil? That requires taking our wrong thinking to a cross and replacing it with sound doctrinal understanding... The transforming of our mind.

grace and peace ...................