Predestination is misunderstood...
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.................No ..no ..no ..no! Not one good thing dwells in the flesh!
Only Adam before the fall could have said what you did...
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells;
for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. " Romans 7:18
I most probably should have said "the body itself is not the sin nature" to make it clearer.
You got that way too quick!
I was in a joking mood... The post was changed right after the original posting.! ....woops!
I hope you can now respond to my post.
I was in a joking mood... The post was changed right after the original posting.!
....woops!I hope you can now respond to my post.
J.
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Yes, in my flesh. The body is wrong (it's why we get sick and die), corrupted by the law of sin within but physical matter, in and of itself, is not evil. I got the impression the poster who queried me on this may have been thinking I was going down a gnostic route with the concept of matter being evil.
I most probably should have said "the body itself is not the sin nature" to make it clearer.
I most probably should have said "the body itself is not the sin nature" to make it clearer.
In Romans 7:18, the apostle Paul expresses a profound insight into the human condition. He acknowledges that within his flesh, or his sinful nature, nothing good dwells.
This statement reflects the biblical understanding of the pervasive and corrupting influence of sin on human beings as a result of the fall. Despite having the desire to do what is good, Paul laments that he struggles to carry it out. This inner conflict between the desire to do good and the inability to consistently perform it is a universal experience shared by many.
Paul's words in this verse highlight the inherent weakness of human nature and the ongoing struggle with sin, even for those who have been transformed by faith in Christ.
The passage serves to emphasize the need for God's grace, the empowering work of the Holy Spirit, and the redemptive work of Jesus Christ in overcoming the sinful nature and enabling believers to live in accordance with God's will.
Overall, Romans 7:18 encapsulates the tension between human frailty and the pursuit of righteousness, ultimately pointing to the dependence on God for true transformation and victory over sin.
J.
Yes, in my flesh. The body is wrong (it's why we get sick and die), corrupted by the law of sin within but physical matter, in and of itself, is not evil. I got the impression the poster who queried me on this may have been thinking I was going down a gnostic route with the concept of matter being evil.
I most probably should have said "the body itself is not the sin nature" to make it clearer.
I most probably should have said "the body itself is not the sin nature" to make it clearer.
But! The sin nature is in every cell of the body, except one. The female ovum.
That is why Jesus could not have a human father, and Jesus was able to have a body free of sin.
Because?
The Holy Spirit fertilized the ovum with the needed (perfect) genetic materials.
Its why the body of Jesus was so powerful....
Your revised statement, "I most probably should have said 'the body itself is not the sin nature,'" accurately clarifies your intention.
The sin nature, as discussed earlier, is a theological construct describing the innate tendency of human beings to sin due to the effects of original sin. The sin nature is not confined to the physical body alone but rather encompasses the entirety of one's being—mind, emotions, and actions.
Although the body plays a role in carrying out sinful desires, it is not synonymous with the sin nature itself.
In summary, the sin nature is a spiritual reality that affects the whole person, not merely the physical body. The body is influenced by the sin nature but is not identical to it.
However, some general points related to the sin nature and its impact on the whole person can be found in the following verses:
Genesis 6:5 – Mentioning that the thoughts of mankind are continually evil.
Jeremiah 17:9 – Stating that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
Romans 3:10–18 – Revealing that none are righteous, no not one.
Romans 7:18 – Acknowledging that within the flesh, nothing good dwells.
Ephesians 2:1 – Confirming that before salvation, individuals were dead in transgressions and sins.
While these verses do not explicitly address the distinction between the sin nature and the physical body, they do underscore the universality of sin and the need for redemption through faith in Jesus Christ.
The sin nature, as discussed earlier, is a theological construct describing the innate tendency of human beings to sin due to the effects of original sin. The sin nature is not confined to the physical body alone but rather encompasses the entirety of one's being—mind, emotions, and actions.
Although the body plays a role in carrying out sinful desires, it is not synonymous with the sin nature itself.
In summary, the sin nature is a spiritual reality that affects the whole person, not merely the physical body. The body is influenced by the sin nature but is not identical to it.
However, some general points related to the sin nature and its impact on the whole person can be found in the following verses:
Genesis 6:5 – Mentioning that the thoughts of mankind are continually evil.
Jeremiah 17:9 – Stating that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
Romans 3:10–18 – Revealing that none are righteous, no not one.
Romans 7:18 – Acknowledging that within the flesh, nothing good dwells.
Ephesians 2:1 – Confirming that before salvation, individuals were dead in transgressions and sins.
While these verses do not explicitly address the distinction between the sin nature and the physical body, they do underscore the universality of sin and the need for redemption through faith in Jesus Christ.
I agree so I'm not really sure what the "but" is about?
I understand the sin nature to be a genetic mutation causing our bodies to be corrupted from what God originally formed and built for Adam and Eve.
I'm trying to avoid the concept that matter is evil which, is a gnostic notion. It would seem I'm doing a lousy job.
I understand the sin nature to be a genetic mutation causing our bodies to be corrupted from what God originally formed and built for Adam and Eve.
I'm trying to avoid the concept that matter is evil which, is a gnostic notion. It would seem I'm doing a lousy job.
I disagree. The sin nature is a genetic mutation of our DNA that resides in the body. That, coupled with the imputation of Adam's sin (spiritual death) is what encompasses the entirety of our being and locks us into a downhill slide that would end in our complete depravity and destruction if not for the grace and mercies of God.
The sin nature alone doesn't do it because if it did, then those of us who are born again would still have an endless struggle with sin, never overcoming because we still have a sin nature. The difference between the before (pre-Gospel) and after (post-Gospel) is being made spiritually alive.
The sin nature alone doesn't do it because if it did, then those of us who are born again would still have an endless struggle with sin, never overcoming because we still have a sin nature. The difference between the before (pre-Gospel) and after (post-Gospel) is being made spiritually alive.
I agree so I'm not really sure what the "but" is about?
I understand the sin nature to be a genetic mutation causing our bodies to be corrupted from what God originally formed and built for Adam and Eve.
I'm trying to avoid the concept that matter is evil which, is a gnostic notion. It would seem I'm doing a lousy job.
I understand the sin nature to be a genetic mutation causing our bodies to be corrupted from what God originally formed and built for Adam and Eve.
I'm trying to avoid the concept that matter is evil which, is a gnostic notion. It would seem I'm doing a lousy job.
The body is innately "sinful."
Sin and evil are not one and the same.
The Gnostics view the body as evil....
Because they are evil in how they define it.
Its sinful, not evil.
If the body were innately evil it would have been impossible to give the Law of Moses to the Jews.
For, if truly evil? The Law would have been totally ignored at all times.
Good and bad/evil is what we must be taught in this fallen world.
We are taught... "This good! - Good boy/girl! "This is bad!" - Bad boy/girl.. do not do it.
Evil would simply tell the one teaching about good and evil that evil is good.
Evil is about "thinking against righteousness."
In contrast...
Sin is about having malfunctioning internalized impulses, unable to do righteousness.
Just the same..... in a world where things go undefined. Bad and evil can be used as synonymous terms.
Evil is harmful thinking. Leading to defending unrighteousness.
Bad is sin - Harmful impulses to make one fall short of righteousness. .
But, when men think evil?
Doing such evil requires making lies to counter God's truth.
Sin requires no such defense to do sin. It just does it because the impulse drives one to do it.
To have 'evil bodies' would indicate total inability to learn, or to follow the laws of good and evil.
Evil is rationalized defiant "lawlessness" in the face of God's law for how man should live.
This can be a tough one.
Jesus died for sin.
Jesus did not die for evil.
Its evil that sends men to Hell, not their sins.
grace and peace ................
The phrase "the wages of sin is death" comes from the Greek text of Romans 6:23, which reads as follows:
ὁ γὰρ μισθὸς τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, ὁ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.
Breaking down the verse, we see that "the wages of sin" is translated as "ὁ γὰρ μισθὸς τῆς ἁμαρτίας."
The word "μισθὸς" (misthos) means "wages" or "payment," and "ἁμαρτίας" (hamartias) means "sin." The article "τῆς" (tes) is the genitive case of the feminine definite article, indicating that "sin" is the object of the preposition "of" in the phrase "the wages of sin."
The next phrase, "is death," is translated as "θάνατος" (thanatos), which means "death." The verb "is" is not present in the Greek text, but is implied by the context.
The verse goes on to contrast the wages of sin with "the gift of God," which is translated as "ὁ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ." The word "χάρισμα" (charisma) means "gift" or "grace," and "θεοῦ" (theou) is the genitive case of "God," indicating that the gift is from God.
The final phrase, "is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord," is translated as "ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν." The word "ζωὴ" (zoe) means "life," and "αἰώνιος" (aionios) means "eternal." The preposition "ἐν" (en) means "in," indicating that eternal life is found in Christ Jesus. "Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ" (Christo Iesou) is the dative case of "Christ Jesus," indicating that eternal life is found in relationship to Him. Finally, "τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν" (to kyrio hēmōn) means "our Lord," indicating that Christ Jesus is the Lord of believers.
In summary, the phrase "the wages of sin is death" emphasizes the cost of sin, which is death. However, the verse also offers hope through the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus, which is available to all who believe.
J.
ὁ γὰρ μισθὸς τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, ὁ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.
Breaking down the verse, we see that "the wages of sin" is translated as "ὁ γὰρ μισθὸς τῆς ἁμαρτίας."
The word "μισθὸς" (misthos) means "wages" or "payment," and "ἁμαρτίας" (hamartias) means "sin." The article "τῆς" (tes) is the genitive case of the feminine definite article, indicating that "sin" is the object of the preposition "of" in the phrase "the wages of sin."
The next phrase, "is death," is translated as "θάνατος" (thanatos), which means "death." The verb "is" is not present in the Greek text, but is implied by the context.
The verse goes on to contrast the wages of sin with "the gift of God," which is translated as "ὁ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ." The word "χάρισμα" (charisma) means "gift" or "grace," and "θεοῦ" (theou) is the genitive case of "God," indicating that the gift is from God.
The final phrase, "is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord," is translated as "ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν." The word "ζωὴ" (zoe) means "life," and "αἰώνιος" (aionios) means "eternal." The preposition "ἐν" (en) means "in," indicating that eternal life is found in Christ Jesus. "Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ" (Christo Iesou) is the dative case of "Christ Jesus," indicating that eternal life is found in relationship to Him. Finally, "τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν" (to kyrio hēmōn) means "our Lord," indicating that Christ Jesus is the Lord of believers.
In summary, the phrase "the wages of sin is death" emphasizes the cost of sin, which is death. However, the verse also offers hope through the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus, which is available to all who believe.
J.
Here is what I'm attempting-
When engaging someone who expresses skepticism or dismissiveness regarding an exegetical response based on Scripture, it's essential to approach the conversation with empathy, respect, and openness while still maintaining the integrity of the Biblical message.
Here are some suggestions for responding to someone who seems uninterested in a detailed analysis of Scripture:
Acknowledge their perspective: Start by acknowledging their feelings without agreeing with them directly. For example, you could say something like, "It sounds like you might be feeling frustrated or unconvinced when it comes to discussing the Bible in detail. That's understandable, and I want to hear where you're coming from."
Clarify intentions: Explain why you share these details, focusing on the value they bring rather than justifying your methodology. You might say, "My goal isn't to confuse you with 'word games.' Instead, understanding the original language helps us better grasp the meaning behind the words and gain deeper insights into what the authors intended. It's my belief that this enriches our understanding of the Bible."
Focus on relevance: Highlight how the information you provide relates to real-world issues or personal experiences. For instance, you may mention, "Understanding the concept of 'the wages of sin is death,' for example, can help us appreciate the seriousness of our choices and motivate us to seek forgiveness and change."
Invite dialogue: Encourage further discussion instead of assuming that they won't be receptive. Say something like, "Would you like to explore this topic together, or would you prefer another angle?"
Be patient and listen actively: Allow time for the person to process the information and ask questions. Show genuine interest in hearing their thoughts and perspectives.
Respect boundaries: If the individual continues to display no interest in discussing the subject matter at hand, accept their decision graciously. Avoid pushing too hard or making assumptions about their beliefs.
Pray for wisdom and discernment: Ask God to guide both parties during the conversation, helping each one learn and grow in love and truth.
Remember that everyone approaches spiritual matters differently, so it's crucial to meet people where they are and avoid forcing them into a particular mold. By following these guidelines, you can foster meaningful conversations and build relationships grounded in mutual respect and understanding.
J.
When engaging someone who expresses skepticism or dismissiveness regarding an exegetical response based on Scripture, it's essential to approach the conversation with empathy, respect, and openness while still maintaining the integrity of the Biblical message.
Here are some suggestions for responding to someone who seems uninterested in a detailed analysis of Scripture:
Acknowledge their perspective: Start by acknowledging their feelings without agreeing with them directly. For example, you could say something like, "It sounds like you might be feeling frustrated or unconvinced when it comes to discussing the Bible in detail. That's understandable, and I want to hear where you're coming from."
Clarify intentions: Explain why you share these details, focusing on the value they bring rather than justifying your methodology. You might say, "My goal isn't to confuse you with 'word games.' Instead, understanding the original language helps us better grasp the meaning behind the words and gain deeper insights into what the authors intended. It's my belief that this enriches our understanding of the Bible."
Focus on relevance: Highlight how the information you provide relates to real-world issues or personal experiences. For instance, you may mention, "Understanding the concept of 'the wages of sin is death,' for example, can help us appreciate the seriousness of our choices and motivate us to seek forgiveness and change."
Invite dialogue: Encourage further discussion instead of assuming that they won't be receptive. Say something like, "Would you like to explore this topic together, or would you prefer another angle?"
Be patient and listen actively: Allow time for the person to process the information and ask questions. Show genuine interest in hearing their thoughts and perspectives.
Respect boundaries: If the individual continues to display no interest in discussing the subject matter at hand, accept their decision graciously. Avoid pushing too hard or making assumptions about their beliefs.
Pray for wisdom and discernment: Ask God to guide both parties during the conversation, helping each one learn and grow in love and truth.
Remember that everyone approaches spiritual matters differently, so it's crucial to meet people where they are and avoid forcing them into a particular mold. By following these guidelines, you can foster meaningful conversations and build relationships grounded in mutual respect and understanding.
J.
Sins are an end result of Evil. It is based on pride.
I am not sure why you are tryign to seperate the two
Then according to the law we are guilty, and suffer the curse of the law.
You do not get away with sin, there are not good sins and bad sins..
Are you not rationalizing and defending your sin because you committed an oopsie (you sinned on accident)?
Adam took a bite out of a fruit, and the all of all mankind was the end result.
God does not take sin of any kind lightly..
I am not sure why you are tryign to seperate the two
Then according to the law we are guilty, and suffer the curse of the law.
You do not get away with sin, there are not good sins and bad sins..
Are you not rationalizing and defending your sin because you committed an oopsie (you sinned on accident)?
Adam took a bite out of a fruit, and the all of all mankind was the end result.
God does not take sin of any kind lightly..
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