Sunday Worship?

Yes... sound doctrine for those UNDER Mosaic law....
You need to spend a lot more time reading the NEW testament, to gain an understanding of what Jesus did for us.
Or, if you want to live under the Torah, renounce Jesus and become a full fledged Jew....

I appreciate the conversation. I only wish you had come to understand. Grace and peace.

What were the Jews required to do, when they failed to keep the law completely? It's pretty plain in the Torah.... what did they have to do to "recover" from sinning?

Nevertheless, at a minimum, nearly every letter of the law has passed.

We now read the following verse again.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

So we clearly understand that all has been accomplished.

There is no other way to read this verse.

While Jesus certainly accomplished much through the cross, there is still the 2nd coming and everything that Revelation says comes with that left to be accomplished. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that not the least part would disappear until heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplished, neither of which has happened yet, both of which are referring to end times or are ways of saying that it is never going to happen. Instructions for how to testify about God's nature can't be abolished without first abolishing God.

Yes... focus on Jesus and everything else will work out.... Jesus was a perfect example of obedience, and the more we become like Jesus the more we will obey.

We can't become perfect by our efforts but by faith in Jesus we can have His righteousness.

By grace we recieve this gift.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

I agree that with Jesus in us, He will keep the law in and through us..
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 7:7-9
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

So knowing the law helps us know what is sin.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Knowing Jesus is the key. It is essential to let Jesus gain the victory in us by faith. But knowing Jesus is more then just know His name or knowing about Him. It is understanding His character and spending quality time with Him. The law is part of God's character of love.
Mat 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Till Heaven and Earth Pass one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.

If you take that as the whole Torah and every law it can be an issue. Laws have been nailed to the cross. But the law Jesus was talking about does not change till heaven and Earth pass.

This is why we need to understand that there are different laws.

Ceremonial laws that were a shadow.
The moral law
The civil laws
And natural laws

Gravity is still a law of nature today
The moral law is still unchanged today.

The civil and ceremonial laws passed away when Jesus died and when Israel stopped being a nation.

Rom 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Jas 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Has the resurrection of the righteous been accomplished? Has the destruction and judgement of the evil been accomplished?
Has the heaven and earth been destroyed with the devil and sin? Has death passed away..... ?

Rev 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

These things have not been fulfilled yet.

As I have said.
You are very confused and do not understand Scripture.
I will leave you to your foolishness.

Can you really not recognize how absurd for it to be foolishness to think that followers of God should follow His instructions in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow?

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

In Proverbs, is it foolishness or wisdom to obey God's instructions?

The claims of the Catholic entity are irrelevant. Long before it existed, Christians were meeting together "on the first day of the week" which is our Sunday. We meet together on Sunday following them, not the Catholics.

Where in Scripture is this alleged distinction stated?

I'll provide the answer for you: NOWHERE.

There is no distinction; the Law is a complete unit, which is not to be broken into parts that apply and parts that don't. You either follow the entire law or you are a lawbreaker, simple as that

For the Christian believer, the inner witness of the Holy Spirit guides us to live in accordance with God's desire. We don't need the law as a guideline anymore.

You're completely missing the point. Hebrews does not tell us to disobey what God has commanded; such an interpretation would be wrongheaded.

What Hebrews does tell us is that the covenant of the Law is no longer in effect for the Christian believer. The Law is as irrelevant to the Christian in the same way that a person who emigrated from Argentina to Australia is no longer bound by Argentina's law.

Jesus alone fulfilled the Law. Nobody else ever did.

Obeying one statute of the Law is not fulfilling it. The Law has roughly 613 individual statues, all of which (where relevant) must be obeyed fully for one to have "fulfilled" the Law.

For the ancient Israelite, not for the Christian!

Your placing all the laws in the same category.. is the law about adultery still realivent? And the law about converting? Or the law about taking God's name in vain? These laws are still relevant today for Christians. All 10 commandments are relevant.

Some laws are no longer relevant because we are not under the Jewish government and some are not relevant because Jesus has taken their place.

For example Hebrews tells us that we have Jesus as the high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. No need for a temple on earth anymore.

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

It is wrong to say all laws are finished because Jesus died and rose again.

If the moral laws could be changed or removed then Jesus did not need to die.

The Spirit-guided believer will not commit adultery and will trust Jesus to cleanse him or her of any inadvertent sin.

Again, please provide the Scripture that defines the categories of laws that you propose.

You act as though Christians have immigrated to a different God
The set of laws that the God of Israel has commanded paint us a picture of the nature of who He is, for example, we can see that God is wise by seeing that He given wise laws, that he is holy, righteous, good, just, merciful, faithful, and so forth, and so by obeying them, we are testifying about who the God of Israel is, such as with our good works testifying about His goodness, which is why they give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16). Further, but testifying about who the God of Israel is, we are also expressing the belief that He is those things, so by doing good works, we are believing in God's goodness, or in other words we are believing in Him. If the God of Israel had instead commanded things like to commit murder and adultery, then that would have painted a very different picture of who He is.

So by treating the New Covenant as though it involves following a different set of laws, you are saying that Christians are emigrating to following a covenant that was made with a different god with a different set of character traits than the God of Israel, through the reality is that the New Covenant is made with the same God with the same eternal nature and therefore the same eternal set of laws for how to testify about about His nature (Jeremiah 31:33). In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law/taught to follow other gods, so if your interpretation of Hebrews were correct, then those who reject it as being written as a false prophet would be correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed His people to do. However, Hebrews 8:10 says that the New Covenant still involves following then Mosaic Law, so your interpretation is incorrect.


According to Galatian 5:14, everyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, including probably yourself, not to something unique that only Jesus did. Indeed, correctly obeying a law is fulfilling it. There is also much discussion in other Jewish writings about how to fulfill various laws in the sense of how to correctly obey them. Jesus is not the only person who has correctly obeying the things commanded in the Mosaic Law.

Anyone who wants to seek God's presence and to delight themselves in Him and choose to follow the instructions that He has given for how to do that and anyone who does not want to do that can refuse to follow His instructions for how to do that. The Mosaic Law was given as a gift to the Israelites to equip them to be a light and a blessing to the nations by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey them in accirdabxce with spreading the Gospel and the promise. Christ spent his ministry blessings us by spreading the Gospel by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching then to obey the Mosaic Law in accordance with the promise (Acts 3:25-26) and being a Christian is about following Christ, not about refusing to follow him.

In 2 Timothy 3:15-17, everything spoke by God is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness and that man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped to do every good work. Paul referred to Holy Scripture that Timothy had available to him since children, which could only be referring to OT Scripture because none of the books of the NT had been written at the time of Timothy's childhood. Everything that OT Scripture is profitable for is in regard to our conduct and the code of conduct in OT Scripture is the Mosaic Law, so that is what Paul was primarily referring to as being profitable for those things, but you interpret these verses as through Paul were making an exception for the Mosaic Law.

No, just a different covenant, the one in Christ's blood.

Dead wrong! Look at the context: verse 7 says, "For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."

We Christians ARE NOT under the Sinai covenant. PERIOD. Not any of it. We are under the new covenant.

Apples vs. orchards! Fulfilling the Law means obeying all of it, not just one commandment.

You keep changing the subject to focus on individual commands. That argument is irrelevant!

I shake my head... but it's still better than banging it against the wall of confusion that is your position.

Wrong yet again. Paul knew that trying to obey the Law perfectly was pointless (see Galatians 3 and 4). He knew that only through faith in Jesus Christ would a person be in right relationship with God... without reference to the Law.

It's really simple: either Christians must obey the entire Law as given at Sinai, or we are free from the Law. There is no middle ground.

All your blather about 'immigrating to a different God' is simply your bondage on display. I wouldn't bother discussing this further with you, but for anyone else who reads this thread, I want to make sure they have the opportunity to see the truth. The freedom available to believers in Christ so far supersedes the bondage of the Law that those under the Law have difficulty comprehending it.

One that still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). A God who commands His people to commit adultery does not have the same identify as the God of Israel in the same way that a God who commands a covenant with a different set of laws does not have the same identify as the God of Israel.

The way to testify about God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. It was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before God made the Mosaic Covenant, it was a sin during it, it remains a sin after it has become obsolete, and it will always be a sin to commit adultery not matter how many covenants God makes, and if that were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal.

Hebrews 8:10 states that the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so I don't see how you can deny that it involves following it. In Hebrews 8:6-9, it does not say that the fault that God found was with what He commanded, but rather it says that He found fault with the people for not continuing in their covenant, so the solution to the problem is not for God to do away with His eternal righteousness and His eternal laws for how to testify about His righteousness, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying them. This is why the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), sending His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey the Mosaic Law and fulfill its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4-7), and putting the Mosaic Law on our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it (Jeremiah 31:33). While I agree that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we are under the New Covenant, which still involves following the Mosaic Law

"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so someone is fulfilling the law whenever they cause that to happen.

The context of how Christ's audience would have understood what he meant when he said that he came to fulfill the law is relevant and helps to prevent us from inserting our own meaning into it.

Do you deny that Israel was given the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations? There's not much sense in the nations rejecting the light and the blessing because the Mosaic Law was given to the Israelites to teach to the nations in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel instead of being directly given to the nations.

The Mosaic Law came with instructions for what to do when God's people sinned, so we were never required to obey it perfectly and we wouldn't earn our righteousness as a wage even if we managed to obey it perfectly (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of why we should obey it. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so obeying God's word is the way to have faith in him, and it is contradictory to have faith in God for salvation while not having faith in what He has instructed. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and to deny that we should trust God's instructions is to deny that we should trust God.

God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from doing what He has revealed to be sin. We can't follow God's word made flesh while refusing to follow God's word. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.

In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while the truth sets us free.