Sunday Worship?

Locoponydirtman · Oct 22, 2023

I told you that i have no conversation with you. What can I say to you that these others have not said? They make the case for Christ and you void Christ by your insistance to law keeping. I even explained to you that there is no exception made for the destruction of the temple. But i leave you finally one last word
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
[2] Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
https://bible.com/bible/114/gal.5.2.NKJV

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
[6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
https://bible.com/bible/114/gal.5.6.NKJV

‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:20‭-‬23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
[20] Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—[21] “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” [22] which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? [23] These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

https://bible.com/bible/114/col.2.20.NKJV

Now i really do not care to have any conversation with you. I do not count you as a brother in Christ. Let these other convince you or go your own way.

Cameron143 · Oct 22, 2023

Soyeong said:

Do you mind exploring this answer a little more in depth? What command have you attained righteousness by keeping perfectly?

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

Cameron143 said:

To fulfill the law" means "to cause God''s will (as made known through His law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo). Countless people have fulfilled the law insofar as there are commands that we have correctly obeyed, such as someone is fulfilling the command to honor their parents whenever they correctly do something that honors their parents. This has nothing to do with trying to attain righteousness through perfect obedience and even if someone did manage to have perfect obedience, then they still would not earn their righteousness as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it, which is why there are many verses that speak against that fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law.

Cameron143 · Oct 22, 2023

Soyeong said:

I have a reason for asking. I'm trying to show you something. You don't have to answer, but if you do, please just answer only this question: what law have you kept wherein you fulfilled the righteousness of the entire law before God?

Magenta · Oct 22, 2023

Jesus is my Sabbath rest.

Magenta · Oct 22, 2023

Colossians 2:16-17

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

Cameron143 said:

I've done that every time I've correctly done what a law instructs.

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

Magenta said:

Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, including keeping the Sabbath holy, and in Matthew 11:28-30, he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, not inviting people to refuse to learn from his example. By Jesus saying that we would find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. This rest for our souls comes from having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, not from taking a break from following God's guidance.

In Hebrews 3:18-19, they did not enter into God's rest because of their unbelief/disobedience, and in Ezekiel 20:13, it specifically mentions that they greatly profaned God's Sabbaths. In Hebrews 4:9-11, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we would rest from our works as God rested form His works, and we should strive to enter into God's rest so that no one may fall away by the same sort of disobedience, so saying that Jesus is your rest to justify the same sort of disobedience is exactly the opposite of what was being said.

Magenta said:

In Colossians 2:16-23, they were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by pagans teaching human teachings and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and prevent them from obeying God, so it is ironic when people try to use this passage to justify their refusal to obey God.

Cameron143 · Oct 22, 2023

Soyeong said:

Can you pick just 1 commandment please?

Magenta · Oct 22, 2023

Soyeong said:

According the the experts of His day, Jesus broke the Sabbath law and blasphemed God.

Though we know He did not. He fulfilled the law and became our propitiation
specifically because nobody else could besides Him. Through Him everyone who
believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

The law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Romans 10:4
:

hornetguy · Oct 22, 2023

Soyeong said:

Again.... what you apparently deliberately "miss" is the fact that Jesus brought a whole new approach to the old covenant "rules"...
The whole "you have heard it said...... but I tell you...." discussion.
Working to keep the Torah is completely nullifying the sacrifice Jesus made for us. He set us free from the restrictive "do's and don'ts" of the law.

The principles are, of course much the same.. but the "rules" are not.

Soyeong said:

And you still have not answered my question.... what do YOU consider necessary to "keep the sabbath holy" ?

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

Cameron143 said:

For example, I've fulfilled the righteous requirement of the command to honor my parents by honoring my parents on many occasions.

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

Magenta said:

Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so if he had broken the Sabbath, then he would have sinned and therefore disqualified himself as being our Savior. It is contradictory to think that Jesus was correct about it being lawful to heal on the Sabbath and to think that the Pharisees were correct about Jesus breaking the Sabbath by healing on it. It has always been lawful to heal on the Sabbath, so the Pharisees who thought that he had broken the Sabbath were incorrect.

Jesus fulfilled the law by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example.

While we do not earn our justification as a wage as the result of having first obeyed the Mosaic Law (Romans 4:1-5), it is nevertheless also true that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as our faith upholds the Mosaic Law (Romans 3:31). Obedience to God's word is the way to believe in God's word made flesh.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Jesus is the goal of the law, which is why it leads us to him, but it does not lead us to him so that we can reject everything he taught and go back to living in sin. It is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the Mosaic Law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earn as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursuing the Mosaic Law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, so nothing in this passage has anything to do with Jesus ending the Mosaic Law, but just the opposite.

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

Locoponydirtman said:

In Colossians 2:22, it directly states that what it is speaking against is according to the commandments and doctrines of men, so it should not make sense to you to interpret that as speaking against obeying the commandments of God and to then think that you should obey the commandments of man instead of God. Likewise, it should not make sense to you that to think that I am making Christ void by holding the position that followers of God should follow God's commands in accordance with what Christ taught. In 1 John 2:6, it says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, not that those who are in Christ refuse to walk in the same way he walked.

Cameron143 · Oct 22, 2023

Soyeong said:

What is required of you in the keeping of this commandment?

Magenta · Oct 22, 2023

Soyeong said:

Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping it perfectly... which is something nobody else could/can do.

Do you really not understand that nobody else could/can do such a thing?

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

hornetguy said:

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so he did not bring a whole new approach to obeying the Mosaic Law, but rather the sum of everything that he taught by word and by example was in compete accordance with what was taught in the OT.

In Matthew 4, when Jesus was directly quoting from what was written in Scripture, he preceded it by saying "it is written...". but in Matthew 5, when he was quoting from what the people of his day had heard being taught about Scripture, he proceeded it by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so his consistent emphasis on the different from of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to what was written, but rather he was fulfilling the law by correcting what what incorrectly being taught and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While the Mosaic Law does instruct to to love our neighbor (Leviticus 18:19), it does not instruct to hate our enemy, but rather loving our enemy is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22.

In Titus 2;14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem. us from God's law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what he accomplished.

That's contradictory. If God were to give someone 100 "rules" that are examples of how to testify about His righteousness in various situations, then we could abstract a spiritual principle of righteousness that all of those examples have in common, which will lead us to take physical actions that are in accordance with those 100 exmples even in situations that is not one of those examples. Correctly understanding a spiritual principle will never lead us away from taking physical actions that are examples of that principle, so someone would be missing the point if they thought that they understood the spiritual principle of love, so they no longer need to take physical actions that are examples of love.

Having a holy convocation and refraining from work.

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Respecting our parents and caring for their needs with the same responsibility that they cared for us. It is essential the command to love ourselves because by honoring our parent we are expressing that we think that what they created is of great value and by not honoring them we are expressing that what they created is of no value.

Soyeong · Oct 22, 2023

Magenta said:

"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in His law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo). After Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5:17-20, he then proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it as it should be. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so again it refers to correctly obeying it as it should be, which is something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which again refers to correctly obeying it, which is something that countless people have done, not to keeping it perfectly. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul fulfilled the Gospel by bringing Gentiles to obedience it word and in deed, which refers to correctly obeying it as it should be, not to having perfect obedience. Likewise, there are many examples in other Jewish writings that speak about how to fulfill the law in the sense of correctly obeying it, not to keeping it perfectly.

Cameron143 · Oct 22, 2023

Soyeong said:

And how often is this required of you? And to what extent must you adhere to the commandment?

Sunday Worship?

Locoponydirtman

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