Why Moses and Elijah were at the transfiguration.

John 2:19-22
Jesus answered and said to them,
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
Then the Jews said,
"It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

He raised Himself.

Yes scripture also says God raised Him, and that He rose by the Spirit.
There is only one reconciliation of these things, and that is the deity of Jesus Christ.

Good job on learning spelling from us.

Heh, I thought it was a massacre .

I think you all can see the issue here, it's more about honesty than understanding.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:!4

Jesus shared our nature for the sole purpose of overcoming it...what happened through death is the power of sin was destroyed - the key here is Jesus having the same fallen nature as us so God could show His Victory over it...anything less would be likened to a puppet show where God is holding all the strings!

Notice how devil i.e sin is personified here? You see sin is the power of death i.e the wages of sin is death therefore its power needed to be represented in an obedient son who would willingly allow that sin prone nature to be put to death on the cross.

There is no other way around this - no duality of nature...impossible otherwise we don't have a High Priest who is taken from among men and can empathise with our struggle to crucify the flesh daily.

Whatever reply you return with if it cant speak to the Victory God achieve through the death of His Son having the same nature as you its completely false and fails to show forth the atonement of God.

F2F

Cool i don't mind giving a reason for what i believe. It is inherently a semamtical, subtle argument but hinges on the deity and glory of our Lord.


In Greek there is only one word, that can either mean tested or tempted in English. As English language has evolved it makes a distinction that Greek doesn't, and carries a connotation of arousing sin nascent in one's heart when one is 'tempted' ((see James 1:12-16)) -

that word in Hebrews 4:15 identically literally translates as 'tested' with the correct connotation that there is no sin in the heart or flesh of the Son of God to be aroused.

Therefore how was He tested? As a lamb or red heifer for sacrifice is tested: in every detail to see if any fault, even the slightest blemish, could be found.

Satan tested Him in the wilderness looking for a way to tempt Him, and to find a way to snare Him. The pharisees, sadducees and herodians constantly tested Him first to see if He really was the Messiah and then to see how they could find a way to trap, condemn and kill Him for His words and actions.

In every way we are tested, He was tested and tested still. But He was tested and found perfect, while we are tested and found to have sin in our hearts, our flesh and our words and deeds.





I have the impeccable, faultless, unfailing view of Christ. That He is very God of very God and very man of very man - that that humanity is spotless, perfect, unfallen humanity.

That He is at all times God, never not God, omniscient, omnipotent and always good. That His humanity does not take His deity away. That He and the Father are One God so that when He speaks of and to the Father He does so for our benefit, when He asks a question He knows the answer so He is asking for our benefit, and that while this view makes many things in scripture that superficially seem explicable by stripping Him of deity into profound mysteries, that this profundity is God's purpose, and that it ultimately proves scripture is scripture, that it all glorifies Him, testifies of Him, ans is complex beyond human understanding - that it can only be comprehended by the Spirit of God revealing it and that it cannot possibly have been composed by mere mortal men.


I find that the best way to arrive at right doctrine is to always take the view that glorifies Christ above any view that diminishes Him.

Sure. He whose nature is the form of God verily came to us as a man.

But He does not destroy the power of death by deserving death, as you persist in trying to teach us. That does not logically follow.

He destroys the power of death by willingly giving Himself to die while having the power of an indestructible life and absolutely pure, holy nature. And so death could not hold Him - it has no right to Him nor power over Him.

He came in the form of a man because a man can die, but He, being God, cannot in the form of God die.

If all it took for death to have no more power over is in our own sinful flesh and nature was to die, than salvation would be by suicide, not by Christ, and all mankind would be universally saved because all die.

So far we have established a number of things in this thread.

1. Moses & Elijah were raised up to strengthen and encourage Jesus before his personal exodus through the cross.
2. Jesus was transfigured to provide him a taste of immortality, something he had not experience previously.
3. The cross was orchestrated by God to show mankind the worthlessness of human nature and how it cannot be fixed, only outcome is put it to death. If God in His wisdom could have shown a way to retain that nature, he would have done so, but it's the putting on of divine nature which is His goal in mind.
4. Jesus was completely and utterly dead in the grave having no existence whatsoever those three days, until such time as His Father raised him from the dead. The book of the Acts is emphatic Yahweh raised His son to glory.
5. Upon raising Jesus from the dead, the power of sin was broken forever and those found constitutionally "in him" now no longer have condemnation as per Romans 8:1-3. To mean, they are no longer in fear of death or sin which leads to death - forgiveness is achieved in Christ because sin's power (the devil) was destroyed through the death of Jesus.

Enjoy.
F2F

You might want to examine the Greek more closely.....used only 3X. And all of the other various forms of this term.
Then rethink your own understanding of it. For example "to make a trial" or "experience" or "assayed" do NOT necessarily carry with them an intrinsic or ineradicable idea of a yearning or desire. As we so often think of in the English translation.

G3987 - peiraō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to make a trial of, to attempt
   1. taught by trial, experienced
2. to test, to make trial of one, put him to proof
   1. his mind, sentiments, temper
   2. in particular, to attempt to induce one to commit some (esp. carnal) crime
   3. tempted to sin

Heb 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted G3987 like as we are, yet without sin.

Act 9:26
And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed G3987 to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed

Act 26:21
For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about G3987 to kill me.

Not one of those things has been established.

You have merely asserted them by your own private fiat and iirc no one here agrees with you.

Though he was a son he took on the form of a servant - best you get this right from the start!

Jesus did not deserve death for any sin he committed; he deserved death because His Father commanded it of him!

So you believe God put his own nature to death on the cross?
Yeah right - you have really thought that through!

So you dont have a sin offering then!

What it took was a man born of a woman; the son of David after the flesh with David's nature to show his obedience in willingly offering his life as a sacrifice for a sin covering for all those who shared in his nature and this was done that the sting of death which is sin my being taken out of the way and all of God's principles and way upheld in a condemned man.

Get that and you have the Christ.

F2F

I see you are struggling there with Heb 4:15 - its a great verse; one many avoid also Hebrews 2:14 for good reason....it shows you your Messiah had the same nature you bare and you already know why this is important.

God either overcame your fallen nature in the life of His Son or he didnt.

I know what is true.

Temptation comes from our flesh nature
Jesus was born into the fallen line to allow God to overcome it
Jesus was tested, tried, tempted and experienced real agony daily in overcoming.

I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!

You all here would diminsh this distress, agony, anguish by making him something he is not!

I'm here to show you a better understanding - kick against it do as you must!

F2F

Being able to learn is an important trait of a disciple...I'm hoping you might follow the example.

what do you say: is Jesus good or is He evil?

there is no middle ground, and no one is good but God alone.

Nope. Not struggling in the least. More like nonchalant poised smooth sailing.

He is good but his nature could not be saved! It was sin's flesh meaning his nature was corruptible and condemned to die as all those he came to save.
Hence why it can now be said "there is now! no condemnation for those who are in Christ"
F2F

No, you are struggling that much is super clear. You might get it but it will require you to study to show yourself approved on this subject.
Start with the sentence of death and the condemnation of "dust you are and dust you will return"
Good place to start - the beginning.
F2F

I always love when someone online knows me better than I do.

Often that is truer than we care to admit!

Can you see the irony in your last reference?

Of you too?