Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast
out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is
the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:37

John 6:37 plus John 10:28
:)
 
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[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Notice the compound fracture of 2 Important words together in ONE SINGLE THOUGHT:

[(DRAW HIM)]

That is still the getting your attention while the Father Invites you to Follow the Son.

Draws Him, tells us, HIM who is being DRAWN TO JESUS has made up his mind to ACCEPT the Father's Invitation.


That is so clear, that all the blind people mentioned in the days of Jesus could read that Passage and know for certain because they made the SAME CHOICE [they were Healed/Sins Forgiven] Followers of Christ.

Your Faith has Made You Whole/Healed/Sins Forgiven...
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Notice the compound fracture of 2 Important words together in ONE SINGLE THOUGHT:

[(DRAW HIM)]

That is still the getting your attention while the Father Invites you to Follow the Son.

Draws Him, tells us, HIM who is being DRAWN TO JESUS has made up his mind to ACCEPT the Father's Invitation.


That is so clear, that all the blind people mentioned in the days of Jesus could read that Passage and know for certain because they made the SAME CHOICE [they were Healed/Sins Forgiven] Followers of Christ.

Your Faith has Made You Whole/Healed/Sins Forgiven...
Waat? No way! You're stretching it into a pretzel to get it to say what you want it to. Their acceptance has nothing to do with it.
They come to Christ only because they've heard and learned of the Father. Only those indwelt by the Holy Spirt can learn
or hear and come to Christ - meaning that they ALREADY were saved/born-again. If not taught by the Father, then they
will not come to Christ- not everyone is so taught. And because of that, they will be raised on the last day.

Look at verse 6:45.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
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Waat? No way! You're stretching it into a pretzel to get it to say what you want it to. Their acceptance has nothing to do with it.
They come to Christ only because they've heard and learned of the Father. Only those indwelt by the Holy Spirt can learn
or hear and come to Christ - meaning that they ALREADY were saved/born-again. If not taught by the Father, then they
will not come to Christ- not everyone is so taught. And because of that, they will be raised on the last day.

Look at verse 6:45.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
I am doing no such thing at all.

You are trying to ignore what the process of Drawing Someone to Christ actually is. It's an Experience where God's Love is most abundant and His presence around you,, within you,, where You say, Let Your Will be DONE, FATHER!

You yield completely to God!

He Breaks you down and begins to Mold You into His Plan for you.

It's complete submission.

That is the Greatest Choice you will ever make is by submitting to Him!
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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You are trying to ignore what the process of Drawing Someone to Christ actually is. It's an Experience where God's Love is most abundant and His presence around you,, within you,, where You say, Let Your Will be DONE, FATHER!
Okay, just so that I understand your point, which do you think is dependent upon the other - that becoming born-again a prerequisite for the "process"(as you call it), or do you think the "process" a prerequisite to becoming born-again (remembering that to be born again is also to have been saved).
By the way, God doesn't offer invitations for salvation. He, being God, makes born-again whomever He had so chosen for it, whenever He chooses to do so.
 
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Okay, just so that I understand your point, which do you think is dependent upon the other - that becoming born-again a prerequisite for the "process"(as you call it), or do you think the "process" a prerequisite to becoming born-again (remembering that to be born again is also to have been saved).
By the way, God doesn't offer invitations for salvation. He, being God, makes born-again whomever He had so chosen for it, whenever He chooses to do so.
God can do as He pleases, no doubt, but He desires our will to Surrender to His Will.

He wants those ((who)) want Him.

That is why He knocks on our hearts and asks to Enter in.

He doesn't FORCE His way, He asks Permission to Enter your heart.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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God can do as He pleases, no doubt, but He desires our will to Surrender to His Will.

He wants those ((who)) want Him.

That is why He knocks on our hearts and asks to Enter in.

He doesn't FORCE His way, He asks Permission to Enter your heart.
No, your first sentence was correct in that He can do as He pleases and so He does.

Someone spiritually dead cannot make a correct spiritual choice. It is not that God forces anyone as you
chose to frame it, rather, it is that He gives spiritual life from spiritual death to those whom He has so chosen for it.
After which, they become beyond overjoyed and not the least bit unhappy or angry that it occurred.
Did Saul ask God on the road to Damascus whether He could enter-in, did He give Saul a choice, or did God just save him
because He had so chosen it for him? It works in the same manner for all who become saved/born-again.
 

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
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There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.
 

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
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John 10:28 says "no one" can be snatched from Jesus' hand as the good Shepherd. No one also includes the person he's talking about. Your explanation does not make any sense. Also, you neglect to quote John 6:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” All believers will be part of the resurrection of the body to live forever in the new heavens and the new earth (Revelation 21-22). Jesus won't lose any of them that the Father has given to him.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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John 10:28 says "no one" can be snatched from Jesus' hand as the good Shepherd. No one also includes the person he's talking about. Your explanation does not make any sense. Also, you neglect to quote John 6:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” All believers will be part of the resurrection of the body to live forever in the new heavens and the new earth (Revelation 21-22). Jesus won't lose any of them that the Father has given to him.
Father gives "all that looks on (Him) the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" to Him.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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What might've been the result if Jesus' prayer stopped at, "Take this cup from Me," and short of, "Nevertheless, not My will, but Yours be done?"
 
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No, your first sentence was correct in that He can do as He pleases and so He does.

Someone spiritually dead cannot make a correct spiritual choice. It is not that God forces anyone as you
chose to frame it, rather, it is that He gives spiritual life from spiritual death to those whom He has so chosen for it.
After which, they become beyond overjoyed and not the least bit unhappy or angry that it occurred.
Did Saul ask God on the road to Damascus whether He could enter-in, did He give Saul a choice, or did God just save him
because He had so chosen it for him? It works in the same manner for all who become saved/born-again.
But how you explain the process of God forcing people to Believe in Him is literally not found anywhere in the Bible.

In fact, there's nothing that states God forces people to believe.

There's nothing that even states God makes people believe in Him.

Your Doctrine is a Lie that cannot be found anywhere in the Holy Word of God.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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But how you explain the process of God forcing people to Believe in Him is literally not found anywhere in the Bible.

In fact, there's nothing that states God forces people to believe.
Oh yes indeed there is - it is plainly stated in multiple verses - there are many others besides the below.
BTW- The fruit of the Spirit is only given by being indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon becoming born-again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[1Pe 1:21 KJV] 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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We would all be looking at an eternity In Hell
I agree, there would be no other way because I don't think Father would've accepted Jesus' sacrifice were Jesus not submitting His own will to His Father's, in faith.
Jesus could've lived forever while the rest of the world, one by one, died around Him to perpetuity.

Romans 5:
The Triumph of Faith

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Christ’s Sacrifice for the Ungodly

9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. 13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!
 
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Oh yes indeed there is - it is plainly stated in multiple verses - there are many others besides the below.
BTW- The fruit of the Spirit is only given by being indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon becoming born-again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[1Pe 1:21 KJV] 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Which of those 3^ Scriptures does it say God forced humans to Follow Him?