And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

You are of the belief that the Lake of Fire is a real literal place where unbelievers spend eternity.

And you still haven't addressed the issue of the original meaning of the words Hell, Hades, Sheol and Gehenna

it should not surprise me if you told me you believed the Lamb of God i.e. Jesus Christ was literally a sheep!

Right. So, throwing people who committed sins for, say 20 years, justifies in your mind throwing them into a Lake of Fire where they will BURN eternally is not torture but justifiable punishment!

That is a well-established fact...
Revelation 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

We are discussing the Lake of Fire at the moment. The Lake of Fire is the place of eternal torment.

This reveals much about your arrogant nature. Humor is fine until it turns into blasphemy.

God is just. WillB has been warned. You have a choice; continue to rail against Him or submit to His justice, sovereignty, and lordship.

Psalms 2:12
“Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Right. So, throwing people who committed sins for, say 20 years, justifies in your mind throwing them into a Lake of Fire where they will BURN eternally is not torture but justifiable punishment!

I am not able to judge these matters, I completely trust in God's judgement

The bible states that when He comes He will judge the people with equity ... perfect fairness.

Man is a limited creature he is limited in strength, in vision, in reach etc but his imagination is not limited. One way in which man overcomes his natural limitations for good or for evil is by joining himself to others of the same mind and persuasion. A man seeking to do good to his neighbour might join the Salvation Army.

We have seen what horrors have been perpetrated by evil ideologies like communism or fascism.

You and I do not see that inner wickedness, we see only the outer man. We do not see the inner wickedness of a child raper or murderer. God sees it.

people are not punished for what they do but for what they are.

If any are grieved by this let them change what they are.

I will suggest that instead of uncritically swallowing whole what you’ve been told to believe that you actually stand back and THINK and ask yourself ‘what is just about TORTURING someone who committed sins for, say, 20 years or even 100 years, eternity?

The biblical word is "torment / tormented [G928]" (not "tortured").

Let me ask you this: why will the "beast" [indiv. man aspect] and the "false prophet" be "tormented" forever [along with Satan who will be also], when those two [human men] could only have lived as humans on the earth (as everyone else) for, say, 100 years max (or thereabouts... i.e. the length of the time of their ability to have "committed sins" in their lifetime)?


-- Rev20:10 - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-10.htm










____________

G928 -

https://biblehub.com/greek/928.htm

4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment: τινα, Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; 2 Peter 2:8; Revelation 11:10; passively, Matthew 8:6; Revelation 9:5; Revelation 20:10; of the pains of childbirth, Revelation 12:2 (cf. Anthol. 2, p. 205, Jacobs edition); with ἐν and the dative of the material in which one is tormented, Revelation 14:10.

Right. So, throwing people who committed sins for, say 20 years, justifies in your mind throwing them into a Lake of Fire where they will BURN eternally is not torture but justifiable punishment!

Evmur: I am not able to judge these matters, I completely trust in God's judgement



WB: But that’s what you are doing in saying that those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire where they will be TORTURED for eternity deserve what they get.



And you stubbornly refuse to even contemplate that YOUR interpretation of Hell, Hade, Sheol, and Gehenna (which you won’t give expositions of their original meanings) may just be inaccurate.

Evmur: The bible states that when He comes He will judge the people with equity ... perfect fairness.


WB: And I haven’t disputed that. What I’m doing and to which I’m perfectly entitled to do is question your interpretation of specific words as above and your belief in a LITERAL Lake of Fire in the context that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language.


Evmur: Man is a limited creature he is limited in strength, in vision, in reach etc but his imagination is not limited. One way in which man overcomes his natural limitations for good or for evil is by joining himself to others of the same mind and persuasion. A man seeking to do good to his neighbour might join the Salvation Army.



WB: And have YOU never for even one minute considered that that applies to YOU also? Or do you consider that YOU are infallibly correct – as a limited creature – in your INTERPRETATION of Scripture?

Evmur: We have seen what horrors have been perpetrated by evil ideologies like communism or fascism.


WB: And there’s countless numbers of people turned OFF the Bible by the likes of insane Popes who sold ‘indulgencies’ to the ignorant to get their friends and family out of Hell and the Lake of Fire.


Evmur: You and I do not see that inner wickedness, we see only the outer man. We do not see the inner wickedness of a child raper or murderer. God sees it.



WB: You can discern what a man is by his actions and a child rapist by his very action reveals his inner wickedness/evil.

Evmur: people are not punished for what they do but for what they are.

If any are grieved by this let them change what they are.



All by grace



WB: IF God were to give justice to me, you and every person on the Planet He could justifiably send us to the gallows and to ‘destroy’ our souls.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

I will suggest that instead of uncritically swallowing whole what you’ve been told to believe that you actually stand back and THINK and ask yourself ‘what is just about TORTURING someone who committed sins for, say, 20 years or even 100 years, eternity?

And THINK about the meaning of DESTROY soul.

You might find my response 'strange' but nonetheless I am in agreement.

Let me explain. There are those of the belief that those who are the unsaved are thrown into a literal Lake of Fire. And in that Lake of literal burning flames the unsaved are TORTURED for eternity.

That it is the belief of some people.

in Jeremiah, in connection with Baal worshippers who burned alive their own sons and daughters, God said: "[such a thing] never entered my mind."

Notwithstanding what God has said, namely, that He wouldn't BURN people alive for even a few MINUTES i.e. the time it would take to destroy someone, those persons believe that He will burn people alive for ETERNITY.

That's their belief - not mine. And it seems that some of those revel in that belief and to justify their position they defend themselves with appeals to "God is just etc" as if their interpretation of Scripture is what God intended readers to believe. It never, it seems, for even 1 second, to have crossed their minds, despite all arguments to the contrary, that they may just possibly be wrong.

Notwithstanding what God has said, namely, that He wouldn't BURN people alive for even a few MINUTES i.e. the time it would take to destroy someone, those persons believe that He will burn people alive for ETERNITY.

You might find my response 'strange' but nonetheless I am in agreement. Let me explain. There are those of the belief that those who are the unsaved are thrown into a literal Lake of Fire. And in that Lake of literal burning flames the unsaved are TORTURED for eternity.

That it is the belief of some people.

in Jeremiah, in connection with Baal worshippers who burned alive their own sons and daughters, God said: "[such a thing] never entered my mind."

Notwithstanding what God has said, namely, that He wouldn't BURN people alive for even a few MINUTES i.e. the time it would take to destroy someone, those persons believe that He will burn people alive for ETERNITY.

That's their belief - not mine. And it seems that some of those revel in that belief and to justify their position they defend themselves with appeals to "God is just etc" as if their interpretation of Scripture is what God intended readers to believe. It never, it seems, for even 1 second, to have crossed their minds, despite all arguments to the contrary, that they may just possibly be wrong.

The only thing I'm finding 'strange' about your response, is any comment whatsoever about what I'd put further down in my post (the part about the beast [indiv. man aspect] and the false prophet and the part about how "THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED for ever and ever [/unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" which phrase always means, "forever" as we use the term, meaning, forever without end).

What are your thoughts about this, and what I'd put there (about how their "committing sins" could only have lasted for the length of their lifetimes, yet here we see them "tormented unto the ages of the ages [i.e. forever, without end]." Why is that, given your previous reasonings??



Below is [mostly] what I had written up prior to reading your response (tweaking it only slightly since then):

Consider:


Luke 16... [Jesus speaking... about what happens at the time of persons / individuals dying]

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell [/hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments [G931; pl.; related to the G928 word], and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented [/I am suffering; G3600] in this flame [G5395].
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented [/you are suffering G3600].
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment [G931; related to the G928 word].



[ ^ that commences at the time of death, for individuals; IOW, "time" on earth still exists, for others... i.e. his brethren; So even this context mentions "[tormented/suffering] IN THIS FLAME"... whatever this "flame" means (which includes the idea of "torments [G931 (related to G928)]" and "suffering [G3600]"), it lasts clear till the time "hell/hades delivered up the dead..." at the GWTj time-slot Rev20]




Then (further), "Hell / hades" will be later (at the GWTj time-slot) cast into the lake of fire, as well as those who will have come from there (i.e. the unsaved dead; Rev20:13,14,15); The beast and the false prophet will have been in the lake of fire for the thousand years already by that point (so far), and Satan will be loosed from his prison to be cast into the lake of fire at that point, where (as it says), "they [plural] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever [/unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" which underlined phrase, everywhere it is used (in every case, even in Revelation), ALWAYS MEANS "forever" (as we normally define the term), that is, forever without end.

All those of whom it is said "[and death] and hell/hades[/U] delivered up the dead which were in them" are all of the unsaved dead (i.e. those whose names were not found written in 'the Book OF LIFE') and these will be cast into the lake of fire also at that point (at the GWTj point in time; i.e. when Satan will be cast into the lake of fire). "Death" and "hell /hades" will also be cast into the lake of fire at that point...

IOW, this is when "death" itself ('the last enemy') will be "destroyed [G2673; 'to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative'... 'to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish']" 1Cor15:26 (meaning, "the SECOND death" is NOT "death" which will have just been put out of business permanently at that point / destroyed [G2673]... "the SECOND death" is the lake of fire Rev20:14, 21:8). "Death" will have been put out of business at that point (no one suffering the lake of fire will ever employ "death"... the only thing available is "the SECOND death [i.e. 'the lake of fire']"--there is no escaping out of there by means of dying [/death]... as it will have been officially put out-of-business, at that point (at the GWTj time-slot).




Additionally, where Revelation mentions "the smoke of their torment..." and "they have no rest day and night" (Rev14), this also expresses the forever-ness "of their torment" (speaking specifically here of those who worship the beast and his image and receive the mark of his name / his mark... and the "smoke" going up/ascending from that particular source "for ever and ever [/unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... i.e. forever, without end)




[And note that, at the earlier time-slot ("at the end [singular] of the age [singular]" i.e. at His Second Coming time-slot) it says re: the angels [/reapers] that they are to "collect ye first the TARES, and bind them in bundles TO BURN [G2618] them..." Matt13:30, and v.40 "...TARES are gathered and BURNED [/consumed G2618] in the FIRE [G4442]..." and v.42 "And shall cast them into the FURNACE [G2575] OF the FIRE [G4442]"... "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (<--a phrase used when referencing things which occur at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot, not the later GWTj time-slot, btw); I'm just mentioning these because of the same thing said at the top of this post... that whatever "[tormented / suffering] IN THIS FLAME" refers to, we know it involves "suffering"... "being in TORMENTS [G931 (related to the G928 word)]"]




Any thoughts?

You have no comprehension of the severity of sin, rebellion, and rejection of God's only begotten Son. You have no comprehension of God's wrath and the danger of accusing your Maker of injustice. You would do well to silence your complaints against your Maker for a season. Take a lesson from the Book of Job.

there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..

Actually, sacrificing human beings, particularly children, is what God was speaking about. It had nothing to do with eternal judgment.

And YOU may want to follow YOUR own advice and THINK about what Job, in his miserable suffering state said when he longed to go down to SHEOL. IF you actually THINK about it what he wanted was NOT MORE SUFFERING but peace that death gives in the common grave where he would have been DEAD i.e. totally unconscious i.e. non-thinking, non-feeling...non-existent!

It seems as though you've not got the point. When God says that BURNING people alive never entered His mind it is explicit that He wouldn't do that i.e. BURN people alive in the Lake of Fire - which is symbolic language - for one minute far less eternity.