And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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I'm not denying that God has the Sovereign right to deal with us as He sees fit and I openly admit that if He were to give me Justice I could not argue against His decision to send me to the gallows.
But that's not the point I'm making. What I'm doing is questioning HUMAN INTERPRETATION that insists and demands that hell is a real literal place of eternal torture. I've asked those who hold to that view to produce a sound Scripture-based argument which includes details of the original meanings of Hell, Hades, Sheol, and Gehenna and to take into consideration that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language.
But all I get is opinions opinions opinions and I refuse to let my life be ruled by the opinions of fallen corrupt men. What I want is a sound exegesis of Scripture taking into consideration those vital factors.
But that's not the point I'm making. What I'm doing is questioning HUMAN INTERPRETATION that insists and demands that hell is a real literal place of eternal torture. I've asked those who hold to that view to produce a sound Scripture-based argument which includes details of the original meanings of Hell, Hades, Sheol, and Gehenna and to take into consideration that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language.
But all I get is opinions opinions opinions and I refuse to let my life be ruled by the opinions of fallen corrupt men. What I want is a sound exegesis of Scripture taking into consideration those vital factors.
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anything God does is Justice. When God said to Saul to destroy all the Amalekites' women and children HE was Justice.
WB: Asking YOU what YOU think is entirely relevant because YOU make the claim when YOU say “Because God is Doing it” that YOU are God’s Spokesman.
I have asked you for a sound Scripture based argument which includes drilling down into the specific details of the words Sheol, Hades, Hell, and Gehenna and taking into consideration that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language.
You have failed to do so and your ‘argument’ such as it is is nothing but opinion and your opinion quite evidently is formed out of accepting what you’ve been told to believe and not the result of independent research and the application of critical thinking to test what others believe stands up to scrutiny.
CSI (citing WB): "if it is justice to torture a sinner for eternity even if he lived for 1000 years as a wilful sinner."
is one asked from A HUMAN REASONING perspective, not from the God of the Bible who does that
. Here endeth the lesson.
it Don't mean a thing if you an't got the King
WB: “Who does that?” YOU have done precisely that because YOU assume that YOU are speaking for God and yet you have nothing whatsoever in the way of a coherent Scripture based argument and which is amply demonstrated by your glib last few words.
WB: Asking YOU what YOU think is entirely relevant because YOU make the claim when YOU say “Because God is Doing it” that YOU are God’s Spokesman.
I have asked you for a sound Scripture based argument which includes drilling down into the specific details of the words Sheol, Hades, Hell, and Gehenna and taking into consideration that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language.
You have failed to do so and your ‘argument’ such as it is is nothing but opinion and your opinion quite evidently is formed out of accepting what you’ve been told to believe and not the result of independent research and the application of critical thinking to test what others believe stands up to scrutiny.
CSI (citing WB): "if it is justice to torture a sinner for eternity even if he lived for 1000 years as a wilful sinner."
is one asked from A HUMAN REASONING perspective, not from the God of the Bible who does that
. Here endeth the lesson.it Don't mean a thing if you an't got the King
WB: “Who does that?” YOU have done precisely that because YOU assume that YOU are speaking for God and yet you have nothing whatsoever in the way of a coherent Scripture based argument and which is amply demonstrated by your glib last few words.
Are you serious? When I said God is doing it in context to God saying to destroy the Amalekites' I am saying what the word of God provided in 1Samuel chapter 15:2-3
2 Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”
If you want to bring the false narrative please do. But I have provided the scripture. I explained very well the context of hell used can be figurative, symbolic, and literal
I gave the translation Hebrew with scriptures for Sheol. and explained that all scripture must be kept in context within the text and seek the authorial intent for the meaning of the text used and that is done within the sentence, verse, paragraph, chapter, book, and the whole Bible. Let me finish with this. Jesus is the supreme authority and where ever and whenever HE is speaking that word is Authoritative.
The Lord Jesus who is Supreme said:
Mark 9:43 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Matthew 5:22 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 25:31-32, 41-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from
the goats.
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The Lord Jesus said there is a place called hell that is eternal. Prepared for the devil and his angels that are real beings going to this real place that man will find themselves in if they reject the Lord.
Your issue is not with what I have said Your issue is with what Jesus said. you may continue your false narrative.
I will suggest that you may want to consider falling down as it will help you to see things with some clarity and stop you misrepresenting me too.
The CENTRAL thing I've been questioning is NOT about the Amalekites and IF you read with understanding you wouldn't have made your accusation and is all to do with your belief - and which is shared with others - that some people will experience TORTURE for ETERNITY. As YOU consider that you are entitled to have that belief and make it known to others then I too have an entitlement to question your belief and to require you to back up your view with a sound Scriptural based argument which includes an explanation of the original meaning of Sheol, Hades, Hell and Gehenna - and you have not done so. All you do is cite a few Scriptures but without any exposition whatsoever.
Simply insisting and demanding that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is not an exposition and is nothing but opinion.
Has it never even entered your conscious thought that words over time take on different meanings today which are entirely different from the original meaning and intent? I couldn't care less what 'modern' thought is when it comes to God's Word as my view is based on the meaning of the words in their original form. You may just want to give this serious issue serious consideration.
The CENTRAL thing I've been questioning is NOT about the Amalekites and IF you read with understanding you wouldn't have made your accusation and is all to do with your belief - and which is shared with others - that some people will experience TORTURE for ETERNITY. As YOU consider that you are entitled to have that belief and make it known to others then I too have an entitlement to question your belief and to require you to back up your view with a sound Scriptural based argument which includes an explanation of the original meaning of Sheol, Hades, Hell and Gehenna - and you have not done so. All you do is cite a few Scriptures but without any exposition whatsoever.
Simply insisting and demanding that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is not an exposition and is nothing but opinion.
Has it never even entered your conscious thought that words over time take on different meanings today which are entirely different from the original meaning and intent? I couldn't care less what 'modern' thought is when it comes to God's Word as my view is based on the meaning of the words in their original form. You may just want to give this serious issue serious consideration.
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"Eternal punishment."
And do please explain just why and how and on what basis you interpret 'punishment' to mean TORTURE?
Have you never stopped to consider that a wilful rebellious sinner who rejects Jesus Christ and when standing in the Court will suffer 'weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth' should he be told his Judgment is that for x period of time, he will be incarcerated and then on the due date be annihilated for eternity as his punishment?
Can you imagine your horror if that were you knowing full well that you turned down the hand of friendship when you could have enjoyed a life of joy for eternity in Paradise ...but you're now on a one-way ticket to 'hell' i.e the common graveyard and with no reprieve?
Isn't that punishment enough for you? Or do you really want to live for eternity in joy knowing that many people who committed sin for say 20 years are now undergoing TORTURE for eternity?! Is that what you really truly want to believe?
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We believe it is Plain and Clear in Scripture, and we do not question God's
Truth About Him or His Attribute of Righteous Justice and Judgment:
Possible, so that they Also may receive God's:
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)! + RICH Blessings
Truth About Him or His Attribute of Righteous Justice and Judgment:
"For My Thoughts Are Not your thoughts, neither are your ways
My Ways, Saith The LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the
earth, so Are My Ways Higher Than your ways, and My Thoughts
Than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8)
So, we should all get out the Wonderful Message to As Many As Possible, so that they Also may receive God's:
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)! + RICH Blessings
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Not quite yet.
I have everything and eternity backing me up. It is you who is standing on thin ice. You will face God on His terms, not your own. Consider yourself warned.
Isaiah 45:9
“Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?”
I have everything and eternity backing me up. It is you who is standing on thin ice. You will face God on His terms, not your own. Consider yourself warned.
Isaiah 45:9
“Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?”
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Matthew 25:46
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
You are the one who dragged the word 'torture' into the room. Do you think you can give God a black eye if you make it sound as horrific as you possibly can? It is you who is making the bed that you will lie in for all eternity.
The name of the place is the 'Lake of Fire'.
Revelation 21:8
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 20:15
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Mark 9:43
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”
This not a parable or allegory. This is the real and literal destination of the arrogant rebel who rejects such great salvation as is offered by my Lord and Savior Jesus.
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
You are the one who dragged the word 'torture' into the room. Do you think you can give God a black eye if you make it sound as horrific as you possibly can? It is you who is making the bed that you will lie in for all eternity.
The name of the place is the 'Lake of Fire'.
Revelation 21:8
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 20:15
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Mark 9:43
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”
This not a parable or allegory. This is the real and literal destination of the arrogant rebel who rejects such great salvation as is offered by my Lord and Savior Jesus.
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It is not plain and clear at all and given that many question your interpretation of Scripture that fact ought to be obvious to you.
Yet again I will ask for an exposition which includes the original meaning of the words Hell, Hades, Sheol and Gehenna.
If you are unable to drill down into those details and given an exposition which allows takes into consider that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language you do not know for certain that your interpretation is accurate.
Yet again I will ask for an exposition which includes the original meaning of the words Hell, Hades, Sheol and Gehenna.
If you are unable to drill down into those details and given an exposition which allows takes into consider that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language you do not know for certain that your interpretation is accurate.
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You have only your personal interpretation which is undoubtedly based on what you've been told to believe and you have not addressed the issues of the original meaning of the words Hell, Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna.
Furthermore, when you state that I am on thin ice for not accepting your interpretation you are demonstrating an intolerant attitude and which has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of salvation.
Furthermore, when you state that I am on thin ice for not accepting your interpretation you are demonstrating an intolerant attitude and which has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of salvation.
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You are of the belief that the Lake of Fire is a real literal place where unbelievers spend eternity. So why ask me who introduced TORTURE?
And you still haven't addressed the issue of the original meaning of the words Hell, Hades, Sheol and Gehenna and neither have you understood or addressed the point that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language.
You would do yourself a service if you learned to distinguish between the different types of language in Scripture e.g. much of Scripture is real literal history e.g. the creation account and the Flood of Noah's time...and much is metaphor....but given your rigid fixated literalist dogmatic views it should not surprise me if you told me you believed the Lamb of God i.e. Jesus Christ was literally a sheep!
And you still haven't addressed the issue of the original meaning of the words Hell, Hades, Sheol and Gehenna and neither have you understood or addressed the point that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language.
You would do yourself a service if you learned to distinguish between the different types of language in Scripture e.g. much of Scripture is real literal history e.g. the creation account and the Flood of Noah's time...and much is metaphor....but given your rigid fixated literalist dogmatic views it should not surprise me if you told me you believed the Lamb of God i.e. Jesus Christ was literally a sheep!
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in post #2181 this helpful seed was planted; be Forewarned, I can only water
that seed this one last time; hereafter it is on you to study/meditate on the
lengthy exposition ( Hell, Sheol, Hades... ) supplied, as I now have to obey God,
in Romans 6:17. Amen.
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)! + RICH Blessings
that seed this one last time; hereafter it is on you to study/meditate on the
lengthy exposition ( Hell, Sheol, Hades... ) supplied, as I now have to obey God,
in Romans 6:17. Amen.
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)! + RICH Blessings
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