Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

What saves you? and what are you trusting to keep you saved? That usually is enough to show someones delusion, Can you answer?

Which is why we should not write anyone off?

Interesting though given what we know as we have the Bible.

Given that David under the law/OC should have been stones why did that not happen?
Do you think until Nathan was sent by God to David to confront his sin that David was not saved?

Hi Ted, good question.

When I add the word conditional or unconditional it makes more sense to me because it reduces the word merit into a simpler and easier to follow idea where there are only two objective possibilities. Merits are someone's qualities and/or abilities.

I think of it like this: when someone is promoted it's normally because of some ability they have, so the promotion is conditional because there are qualifications that must be met before they are promoted. If someone was promoted unmeritoriously then merits wouldn't even be taken into consideration for the promotion; that would be an unconditional promotion.

Merits don't necessarily have to be a positive thing. People can have bad merit too.

So the gospel is for sinners. Being a sinner is a bad merit and it's a quality that someone has; there's a condition. The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. That's the ability to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed.

If grace was unmerited favor then there would be no need to take into consideration anything anyone has done/not done and it would defeat the purpose of there being a plan of salvation to begin with. If salvation is necessary, but I have unmerited grace, then I was saved when I was born. This idea of unmerited grace just leads to Universalism and we both agree it's false.

So the idea of unmerited grace doesn't make sense to me at all. That's why grace is merited/conditional - I hope that makes sense.

Grace is accessed by faith
Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Again, you have put the cart before the horse, the sinner before the Savior, the sheep before the Shepherd, man's ability before God's grace.

"Merits are someone's qualities and/or abilities"

"when someone is promoted it's normally because of some ability they have"

"The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. ???That's the ability??? to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed."

Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Jhn 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

No, I got it all correct. Your faith is required for God's grace. That's a condition.

No, I got it all correct. Your faith is required for God's grace. That's a condition.

LOL, I'm not interested in you hypotheticals. I stick with scripture.

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

The faith isn't ours, it's Christ's...

Philippians 3:9...And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is of the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith...

we're all going to have a different take on that and what it means in regards to the context.

Could you just tell me what faith is, please?

Truely truely…..
Matthew 7:14 KJV
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and

few there be that find it.

No, I got it all correct. Your faith is required for God's grace. That's a condition.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If I live, but not I, but Christ lives in me it follows that the faith I live by is His.

@Runningman said:"The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. ???That's the ability??? to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed."

I think not.....

"Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures." — Luke 24:45

"Had it not been for the love of Jesus we should have remained to this moment in utter ignorance, for without His gracious opening of our understanding, we could no more have attained to spiritual knowledge than an infant can climb the Pyramids, or an ostrich fly up to the stars."
-Spurgeon

Great.

So faith is the expectation of what one hopes for is going to come to pass. Would you say that's accurate?

What did God say He is going to do if we do certain things?

Not exactly. Hope is not the what one hopes is going to come to pass. It is the expectation that what God has said will come to pass.
Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

The definition of faith says it's the substance of things hoped for. I give someone $20, they say they will pay me back, I have faith what they say is true, but actually they can chose to not repay me, but I hope they will. That's exactly what faith is.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, but he was not circumcised yet. Later, circumcision became a requirement and obedience to this law was counted as righteousness.

So in the New Testament, there are also things we must do. We don't necessarily have to understand why, but just trust that these things are true. That's faith. Do you know what you have to do?

Sounds like you're arguing against hearing the gospel, understanding it, believing it/having faith in it, and repenting. All of the things I said there are accurate. Maybe you should pick your arguments more wisely.

So you're saying don't hear the gospel, understand it, believe it, and repent? Maybe you're just being contrarian?

Faith is substance because it is anchored in evidence. Faith is not blind faith as in your example. Faith is sure because it is a response to what God has said and will always come to pass.
Your example was an example of your faith. The example of Abraham was was an example of Christ's faith. You believed what your friend said. Abraham believed what God said.
Your faith has no power to compel compliance and fulfill the agreement. God's faith does. That's the difference between the faith of an individual and the faith of Christ.

It’s evidence, not proof, and there is a very important distinction between these things. Sure, we may honestly and sincerely believe what God said, but our faith is the substance of what we’re hoping for. Otherwise it wouldn’t be faith.

Why does God require our faith? When will we get what we’re hoping for and is there anything we’re expected to do?

No, I got it all correct. Your faith is required for God's grace. That's a condition.