Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Hi Ted, good question.
When I add the word conditional or unconditional it makes more sense to me because it reduces the word merit into a simpler and easier to follow idea where there are only two objective possibilities. Merits are someone's qualities and/or abilities.
I think of it like this: when someone is promoted it's normally because of some ability they have, so the promotion is conditional because there are qualifications that must be met before they are promoted. If someone was promoted unmeritoriously then merits wouldn't even be taken into consideration for the promotion; that would be an unconditional promotion.
Merits don't necessarily have to be a positive thing. People can have bad merit too.
So the gospel is for sinners. Being a sinner is a bad merit and it's a quality that someone has; there's a condition. The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. That's the ability to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed.
If grace was unmerited favor then there would be no need to take into consideration anything anyone has done/not done and it would defeat the purpose of there being a plan of salvation to begin with. If salvation is necessary, but I have unmerited grace, then I was saved when I was born. This idea of unmerited grace just leads to Universalism and we both agree it's false.
So the idea of unmerited grace doesn't make sense to me at all. That's why grace is merited/conditional - I hope that makes sense.
Grace is accessed by faith
Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.
When I add the word conditional or unconditional it makes more sense to me because it reduces the word merit into a simpler and easier to follow idea where there are only two objective possibilities. Merits are someone's qualities and/or abilities.
I think of it like this: when someone is promoted it's normally because of some ability they have, so the promotion is conditional because there are qualifications that must be met before they are promoted. If someone was promoted unmeritoriously then merits wouldn't even be taken into consideration for the promotion; that would be an unconditional promotion.
Merits don't necessarily have to be a positive thing. People can have bad merit too.
So the gospel is for sinners. Being a sinner is a bad merit and it's a quality that someone has; there's a condition. The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. That's the ability to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed.
If grace was unmerited favor then there would be no need to take into consideration anything anyone has done/not done and it would defeat the purpose of there being a plan of salvation to begin with. If salvation is necessary, but I have unmerited grace, then I was saved when I was born. This idea of unmerited grace just leads to Universalism and we both agree it's false.
So the idea of unmerited grace doesn't make sense to me at all. That's why grace is merited/conditional - I hope that makes sense.
Grace is accessed by faith
Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.
"Merits are someone's qualities and/or abilities"
"when someone is promoted it's normally because of some ability they have"
"The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. ???That's the ability??? to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed."
Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Jhn 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
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Again, you have put the cart before the horse, the sinner before the Savior, the sheep before the Shepherd, man's ability before God's grace.
"Merits are someone's qualities and/or abilities"
"when someone is promoted it's normally because of some ability they have"
"The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. ???That's the ability??? to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed."
Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Jhn 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
"Merits are someone's qualities and/or abilities"
"when someone is promoted it's normally because of some ability they have"
"The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. ???That's the ability??? to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed."
Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Jhn 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
@Runningman said:"The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. ???That's the ability??? to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed."
I think not.....
"Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures." — Luke 24:45
"Had it not been for the love of Jesus we should have remained to this moment in utter ignorance, for without His gracious opening of our understanding, we could no more have attained to spiritual knowledge than an infant can climb the Pyramids, or an ostrich fly up to the stars."
-Spurgeon
I think not.....
"Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures." — Luke 24:45
"Had it not been for the love of Jesus we should have remained to this moment in utter ignorance, for without His gracious opening of our understanding, we could no more have attained to spiritual knowledge than an infant can climb the Pyramids, or an ostrich fly up to the stars."
-Spurgeon
Sounds like you're arguing against hearing the gospel, understanding it, believing it/having faith in it, and repenting. All of the things I said there are accurate. Maybe you should pick your arguments more wisely.
So you're saying don't hear the gospel, understand it, believe it, and repent? Maybe you're just being contrarian?
So you're saying don't hear the gospel, understand it, believe it, and repent? Maybe you're just being contrarian?
The definition of faith says it's the substance of things hoped for. I give someone $20, they say they will pay me back, I have faith what they say is true, but actually they can chose to not repay me, but I hope they will. That's exactly what faith is.
Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, but he was not circumcised yet. Later, circumcision became a requirement and obedience to this law was counted as righteousness.
So in the New Testament, there are also things we must do. We don't necessarily have to understand why, but just trust that these things are true. That's faith. Do you know what you have to do?
Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, but he was not circumcised yet. Later, circumcision became a requirement and obedience to this law was counted as righteousness.
So in the New Testament, there are also things we must do. We don't necessarily have to understand why, but just trust that these things are true. That's faith. Do you know what you have to do?
Faith is substance because it is anchored in evidence. Faith is not blind faith as in your example. Faith is sure because it is a response to what God has said and will always come to pass.
Your example was an example of your faith. The example of Abraham was was an example of Christ's faith. You believed what your friend said. Abraham believed what God said.
Your faith has no power to compel compliance and fulfill the agreement. God's faith does. That's the difference between the faith of an individual and the faith of Christ.
Your example was an example of your faith. The example of Abraham was was an example of Christ's faith. You believed what your friend said. Abraham believed what God said.
Your faith has no power to compel compliance and fulfill the agreement. God's faith does. That's the difference between the faith of an individual and the faith of Christ.
It’s evidence, not proof, and there is a very important distinction between these things. Sure, we may honestly and sincerely believe what God said, but our faith is the substance of what we’re hoping for. Otherwise it wouldn’t be faith.
Why does God require our faith? When will we get what we’re hoping for and is there anything we’re expected to do?
Why does God require our faith? When will we get what we’re hoping for and is there anything we’re expected to do?
I'm not sure you understand biblical faith. Biblical faith is the belief that what God says will come to pass.
The hope of biblical faith has substance. That substance is evidence not seen. It is believing that God cannot lie and what He has said He will do. The surety of faith is found in God, not our hope. Our hope finds its substance in God.
We can hope it won't rain tomorrow. It may or may not rain. But if God in some way communicates to you that it will not, then it will not. And your hope is confirmed with certainty.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
If the weatherman says it is going to rain. There are heavy laden clouds overhead. The storm system coming towards you has been drenching everything in its path, and God says it will not rain where you are, is it going to rain where you are?
The hope of biblical faith has substance. That substance is evidence not seen. It is believing that God cannot lie and what He has said He will do. The surety of faith is found in God, not our hope. Our hope finds its substance in God.
We can hope it won't rain tomorrow. It may or may not rain. But if God in some way communicates to you that it will not, then it will not. And your hope is confirmed with certainty.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
If the weatherman says it is going to rain. There are heavy laden clouds overhead. The storm system coming towards you has been drenching everything in its path, and God says it will not rain where you are, is it going to rain where you are?
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I can agree here. Faith is being persuaded something is true.
I think this is very clear is scripture that we are saved through faith, that is we respond to the Gospel message, and we are persuaded it is true and then we put our faith in Jesus for salvation.
Faith requires an object it is not some free floating entity.
I think this is very clear is scripture that we are saved through faith, that is we respond to the Gospel message, and we are persuaded it is true and then we put our faith in Jesus for salvation.
Faith requires an object it is not some free floating entity.