Dispensationalists are wrong in Rev 20.
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The Jewish remnant will be gathered after the Tribulation. Some of the Scriptures definitely refer to them.
I also believe the rapture is the first stage of the first resurrection. I believe we (the Church) will spend all seven years in heaven at the Marriage. The second stage then occurs, and this would be the ressurection of the Tribulation Saints mentioned above (mostly Jews who have come to Christ.)
I also believe the rapture is the first stage of the first resurrection. I believe we (the Church) will spend all seven years in heaven at the Marriage. The second stage then occurs, and this would be the ressurection of the Tribulation Saints mentioned above (mostly Jews who have come to Christ.)
There are two categories here, right? Have you ever worshipped the beast, his image or received the mark of the beast. Hey forum, show of hands? Who here has never worshipped the beast, the image of the beast, or gotten the mark of the beast?
I'm sure the number between Christ's ascension and the time described in Revelation 20 is quite a large number. Paul wrote in the first century that if we suffer with him Paul wrote that "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him..." (II Timothy 2:12.) If you think reigning with Christ is only for tribulational saints, you can take this promise also. If you haven't suffered for Jesus, try street preaching, or you could really go for it and take a duffle bag full of Bibles and tracts to pass out in front of the mosque in Saudi Arabia.
There have been plenty of people throughout history who haven't worshipped the beast. Living before the tribulation doesn't stop that. And other scripture teaches that Christ returns and the dead in Christ rise first, so putting it off for another thousand years doesn't fit with other scripture.
Huh? I don't understand where you get an extra thousand years. And why would you include the resurrection after the thousand years in the 'first resurrection'. That's a counter-intuitive reading of the verse.
I think you are taking a very convoluted, unnatural interpretation of the passage that most human minds would not take. I would imagine almost everyone else in the church universal takes verses 4 and 6 to be about the same people, not matter what interpretation system they are using.
Or they can just read and interpret the passage in a straightforward way that people of other eschatologies would understand because they understand the words in the same way, just interpret the scenario differently.
You will have to do some 'fancy footwork' to get us to understand how you understand the words on the page to mean what you think they mean.
No, they can just read them in the most straightforward obvious manner that is noncontroversial to most people.
The eschatological system and whether the passage has allegorical elements is controversial. Do you know of any commentator who takes this to refer to two one-thousand year reigns of Christ?
I'm sure the number between Christ's ascension and the time described in Revelation 20 is quite a large number. Paul wrote in the first century that if we suffer with him Paul wrote that "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him..." (II Timothy 2:12.) If you think reigning with Christ is only for tribulational saints, you can take this promise also. If you haven't suffered for Jesus, try street preaching, or you could really go for it and take a duffle bag full of Bibles and tracts to pass out in front of the mosque in Saudi Arabia.
There have been plenty of people throughout history who haven't worshipped the beast. Living before the tribulation doesn't stop that. And other scripture teaches that Christ returns and the dead in Christ rise first, so putting it off for another thousand years doesn't fit with other scripture.
Huh? I don't understand where you get an extra thousand years. And why would you include the resurrection after the thousand years in the 'first resurrection'. That's a counter-intuitive reading of the verse.
I think you are taking a very convoluted, unnatural interpretation of the passage that most human minds would not take. I would imagine almost everyone else in the church universal takes verses 4 and 6 to be about the same people, not matter what interpretation system they are using.
Or they can just read and interpret the passage in a straightforward way that people of other eschatologies would understand because they understand the words in the same way, just interpret the scenario differently.
You will have to do some 'fancy footwork' to get us to understand how you understand the words on the page to mean what you think they mean.
No, they can just read them in the most straightforward obvious manner that is noncontroversial to most people.
The eschatological system and whether the passage has allegorical elements is controversial. Do you know of any commentator who takes this to refer to two one-thousand year reigns of Christ?
The angelic type beings are powerful, intelligent beings, and God wishes to teach them certain things and He is using the church to teach them. I don't know that whether all the principality and power type beings are in rebellion against God. I do know that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers. If there are also good angelic beings that are in the principality and power category that we are not at war with, I don't see that as a contradiction.
I Peter 1:12, after referencing our salvation, the gospel, and the glory which shall be revealed it says "which things the angels desire to look into'.
The Old Testament speaks of 'sons of God', which were apparently powerful spiritual beings. Jesus spoke of the resurrected in Luke 20:26: "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection".
He's going to take frail mortal beings with imperfections and bring them to glory, being made like Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection. Certain beings at odds with God who are under judgment may not like the new wave of sons of God that are not completely manifested as sons of God. Maybe they see us as a threat to their position and that could be part of the motivation to war against us. God may want to teach them through us, or could be the ones that are more in line with what they are supposed to do, or maybe both.
I Peter 1:12, after referencing our salvation, the gospel, and the glory which shall be revealed it says "which things the angels desire to look into'.
The Old Testament speaks of 'sons of God', which were apparently powerful spiritual beings. Jesus spoke of the resurrected in Luke 20:26: "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection".
He's going to take frail mortal beings with imperfections and bring them to glory, being made like Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection. Certain beings at odds with God who are under judgment may not like the new wave of sons of God that are not completely manifested as sons of God. Maybe they see us as a threat to their position and that could be part of the motivation to war against us. God may want to teach them through us, or could be the ones that are more in line with what they are supposed to do, or maybe both.
John 14:
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
This speaks of the bridechamber and the rapture. The Jewish marriage feast last for 7 periods of time (years in this case). This will take place in Heaven during the 7 years of tribulation on earth.
Ther are only two types of Resurrection:
1.) Resurrection unto Life.
2.) Resurrection unto Damnation.
The Resurrection unto Life will consist of the Rapture and the Resurrection of Tribulation Saints.
The Resurrection unto Damnation will consist of The White Throne Judgement.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
This speaks of the bridechamber and the rapture. The Jewish marriage feast last for 7 periods of time (years in this case). This will take place in Heaven during the 7 years of tribulation on earth.
Ther are only two types of Resurrection:
1.) Resurrection unto Life.
2.) Resurrection unto Damnation.
The Resurrection unto Life will consist of the Rapture and the Resurrection of Tribulation Saints.
The Resurrection unto Damnation will consist of The White Throne Judgement.
Would you say that the pretrib rapture doctrine is based on an allegorical interpretation of this Jewish tradition rather than scripture?
The seven day feast is specified in the Talmud. Jesus said to Pharisees and teachers of the law, 'ye teach for doctrines the commandments of men.'
What I see in the Bible is that the parousia, the coming of Christ, is referred to as one event. At the coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead in Christ and we which are alive and remain takes place. The lawless one is also destroyed at the brightness of His coming.. something that would have to happen after the tribulation rather than before it. The coming of the Son of Man happens 'after the tribulation' in Matthew. Jesus gives the teaching on His coming as a thief, the days of Noah, and 'no man knoweth the day and the hour' in this context.
The problem with that is that there are two resurrections mentioned in Revelation. The one that happens AFTER the tribulation is the 'first resurrection'. Why would there be a mass resurrection of the saints before the FIRST resurrection?
I have never seen any real evidence for pretrib in the Bible, just pre-tribbers assuming pretrib and wrapping verses around their interpretation.
The seven day feast is specified in the Talmud. Jesus said to Pharisees and teachers of the law, 'ye teach for doctrines the commandments of men.'
What I see in the Bible is that the parousia, the coming of Christ, is referred to as one event. At the coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead in Christ and we which are alive and remain takes place. The lawless one is also destroyed at the brightness of His coming.. something that would have to happen after the tribulation rather than before it. The coming of the Son of Man happens 'after the tribulation' in Matthew. Jesus gives the teaching on His coming as a thief, the days of Noah, and 'no man knoweth the day and the hour' in this context.
The problem with that is that there are two resurrections mentioned in Revelation. The one that happens AFTER the tribulation is the 'first resurrection'. Why would there be a mass resurrection of the saints before the FIRST resurrection?
I have never seen any real evidence for pretrib in the Bible, just pre-tribbers assuming pretrib and wrapping verses around their interpretation.
No, it is based on Scripture, The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
This bothers me also ...how is there a Physical Return of JESUS with a satan that is still able to deceive people?
John 14:18-19 NKJV — “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
What i think is about to happen is that the false church will end for a thousand years ...and then satan starts another one after.
John 14:18-19 NKJV — “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
What i think is about to happen is that the false church will end for a thousand years ...and then satan starts another one after.
Yes. All these point to the pre-Trib Rapture.
Ther are only two types of Resurrection:
1.) Resurrection unto Life.
2.) Resurrection unto Damnation.
The Resurrection unto Life will consist of the Rapture and the Resurrection of Tribulation Saints.
The Resurrection unto Damnation will consist of The White Throne Judgement.
The Marriage Feast in Heaven (which the Bride attends) occurs before the Second Coming and end of the Trib, not after:
Revelation 19:
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Ther are only two types of Resurrection:
1.) Resurrection unto Life.
2.) Resurrection unto Damnation.
The Resurrection unto Life will consist of the Rapture and the Resurrection of Tribulation Saints.
The Resurrection unto Damnation will consist of The White Throne Judgement.
The Marriage Feast in Heaven (which the Bride attends) occurs before the Second Coming and end of the Trib, not after:
Revelation 19:
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Doesn't it make more sense to accept what scripture actually says about the tribulation?
According to II Thessalonians 1, Jesus will come and give the church rest from tribulation. At His coming He will execute vengeance on them that know not God when He comes to be glorified in the saints. Pretrib has the judgment of the unbelievers come later.
I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture and resurrection at Christ's coming. II Thessalonians 2 says the lawless one will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. If Jesus comes back at the beginning of the tribulation how would the man of sin have time to do anything?
According to II Thessalonians 1, Jesus will come and give the church rest from tribulation. At His coming He will execute vengeance on them that know not God when He comes to be glorified in the saints. Pretrib has the judgment of the unbelievers come later.
I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture and resurrection at Christ's coming. II Thessalonians 2 says the lawless one will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. If Jesus comes back at the beginning of the tribulation how would the man of sin have time to do anything?
I don't recall seeing the word "immediate" in there. Was that something of your own invention? 
Because that is why God prepared a place in Heaven for His bride. The Millenium and Final State takes place on Earth.
It would be rather absurd if the Marriage was announced after the fact, and why does the number seven pose such a problem for you? (It all just seems so cut and dried and simple, why do you fight it so?)
Jesus only comes back to Earth once. The Rapture is a go-uppage.
Yes, that is what Revelation 19 tells us. We come back down with Him at His Second Coming.
Jude 1:14 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
Yes it does.
Jesus will keep us from it.
Revelation 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
The Tribulation is the time of God's wrath (and not upon the raptured Church which is in Heaven.)
The Judgement of unbelievers comes after the Millenium.
No, it does not.
Yes, the Anti-Christ and False Prophet will be put away at the Second Coming.
Jesus does not come back to Earth until His Second Coming to Earth. The Rapture occurs seven years prior to this.
Where this idea of post-Trib Rapture came from, I will never know. The end of the Tribulation is a time for coming down, not going up.
Because that is why God prepared a place in Heaven for His bride. The Millenium and Final State takes place on Earth.
It would be rather absurd if the Marriage was announced after the fact, and why does the number seven pose such a problem for you? (It all just seems so cut and dried and simple, why do you fight it so?)
Jesus only comes back to Earth once. The Rapture is a go-uppage.
Yes, that is what Revelation 19 tells us. We come back down with Him at His Second Coming.
Jude 1:14 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
Yes it does.
Jesus will keep us from it.
Revelation 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
The Tribulation is the time of God's wrath (and not upon the raptured Church which is in Heaven.)
The Judgement of unbelievers comes after the Millenium.
No, it does not.
Yes, the Anti-Christ and False Prophet will be put away at the Second Coming.
Jesus does not come back to Earth until His Second Coming to Earth. The Rapture occurs seven years prior to this.
Where this idea of post-Trib Rapture came from, I will never know. The end of the Tribulation is a time for coming down, not going up.
I don't recall seeing the word "immediate" in there. Was that something of your own invention?
The predominant view is that disembodied spirits of the saints go to heaven at death. The New Jerusalem also descends out of heaven after the thousand years. I cannot find any scripture at all for the idea that the church goes to heaven at the rapture. I suspect a lot of pre-tribbers have heard and read that idea so much that they assume it is in the Bible. If it is, please show where the Bible teaches it. We have scripture to show the saints going up to meet the Lord in the air, and we have scripture showing saints returning to earth. The Bible refers to the resurrection and rapture and ascending of the saints in the context of the parousia, and the descending of the saints of the context of the parousia. The lawless one is also destroyed at the parousia. I cannot find any scripture that says that there are multiple parousia events.
Why would the marriage be announced at the end of the book? You take that as at the end of the thousand years? Why announce a wedding supper at the end of the tribulation if it had actually been celebrated for the whole seven years? It doesn't make sense.
He comes back, but we go up to meet him on the way. 'Parousia' is translated 'coming.' The term was also used to refer to when a dignitary would come to town and the people of the town would go out to meet him and escort him back into the city.
In II Thessalonians, Paul tells the __church__ how Christ will come and give them rest from those who cause them tribulation executing judgment on them that believe not, when He comes to be glorified in the saints. This fits a post-tribulational rapture scenario. How is it in any way consistent with pre-trib? Pre-trib has the church recieving rest before the execution of vengeance on them that believe not, with Christ being glorified in the saints seven years before Jesus comes to the earth.
Jesus also tells His disciples to watch and wait for the coming of the Son of Man _after_ the tribulation, which He also calls 'great tribulation'. This is in Matthew 24.
Your having the saints go all the way up past the clouds before coming to earth with the Lord is the part not supported by scripture.
How do you interpret the letters to the angels of the churches? The church in Philadelphia was apparently a literal congregation. I have heard the 'church ages' interpretation. But if that is the case, Philadelphia is not the last age, and the age before the final one is saved from the hour of trial. How do you turn this into a pre-trib rapture verse?
Where does the Bible equate tribulation with wrath. Jesus said in this world ye shall have tribulation. In Matthew 24, the coming of the Son of man and gathering of the elect happens after the tribulation. In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus returns and gives the church rest from tribulation.
There are also saints mentioned in Revelation, saints who overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, who wear white garments. Why would you think that God will be angry at these people?
Not appointed unto wrath comes from a verse that says, '...ye are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Do you think the tribulational saints who overcome by the blood of the Lamb will not obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?
The Judgement of unbelievers comes after the Millenium.
Let us look at the Bible.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Compare with,
I Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is the same Greek word, parousia (inflected for grammary) used in II Thessalonians 2:8.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
What is lacking is something in the Bible that actually teaches this idea, as opposed to what the Bible actually teaches.
We certainly agree on that.
I have given you abundant scriptural evidence. You have given me nothing but questions (which is understandable in the absence of any post-Trib evidence). I will leave you to your nonsensical post-Trib up-down Pogo-rapture theory then. Let's just make sure we are ready today. We never know what day might be our last.
Godspeed.
I have given you abundant scriptural evidence. You have given me nothing but questions (which is understandable in the absence of any post-Trib evidence). I will leave you to your nonsensical post-Trib up-down Pogo-rapture theory then. Let's just make sure we are ready today. We never know what day might be our last.
Godspeed.