Dispensationalists are wrong in Rev 20.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Psalm 119:142
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."



When the "still-living" saints (having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs, FOLLOWING our Rapture) go on to ENTER the MK age at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth [others who DIED are "resurrected ['to stand again']" for same], they/the "still-living" saints will be in their mortal bodies (the only ones who will be capable of reproducing / bearing children--besides their own children/grandchildren/etc born to them who will also have this capacity)... but their children / grandchildren (and so on) will not be "BORN automatically righteous"... and it is THESE (alone) who will be susceptible to "death" in/during the MK age (death being much more rare in the MK age, reserved only for the rebellious); so it is these "children / offspring" BORN to them (and to their children, etc), who are the ones Satan will go forth "TO deceive" ... meaning, this is his aim (as I see it)

 

[Aaron56]

You are dancing. Healing is done by the leaves of the Tree of Life. Insult all you want, but no syntax in the following verses indicates healing. You evade the truth.
And my efforts in this forum are to make you stronger in the actual word of God and not some doctrine of man. The insults I receive in this forum are typical of people who feel they have it all figured out. But I am not trying to offend or deceive.
May God bless you with every good gift.

Insult? I apologize. I do not mean to offend you.

The tree seen in the City of God correlates to the one God showed Ezekiel.

"Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine."

The health of the trees is juxtaposed against the swamps that "will not be healed". The life and health of the tree signifies the healing of the land; only in such a land can such a tree grow. In heaven, there is only this type of tree (which I believe is a representation of something holy).

In heaven, no healing is necessary. It's my belief this tree is the tree of life in Genesis 2; man has come full circle into the place prepared for him by God.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Psalm 119:142
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."



When the "still-living" saints (having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs, FOLLOWING our Rapture) go on to ENTER the MK age at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth [others who DIED are "resurrected ['to stand again']" for same], they/the "still-living" saints will be in their mortal bodies (the only ones who will be capable of reproducing / bearing children--besides their own children/grandchildren/etc born to them who will also have this capacity)... but their children / grandchildren (and so on) will not be "BORN automatically righteous"... and it is THESE (alone) who will be susceptible to "death" in/during the MK age (death being much more rare in the MK age, reserved only for the rebellious); so it is these "children / offspring" BORN to them (and to their children, etc), who are the ones Satan will go forth "TO deceive" ... meaning, this is his aim (as I see it)

Lol, I do not know where you got all that…but…ok.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Insult? I apologize. I do not mean to offend you.

The tree seen in the City of God correlates to the one God showed Ezekiel.

"Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine."

The health of the trees is juxtaposed against the swamps that "will not be healed". The life and health of the tree signifies the healing of the land; only in such a land can such a tree grow. In heaven, there is only this type of tree (which I believe is a representation of something holy).

In heaven, no healing is necessary. It's my belief this tree is the tree of life in Genesis 2; man has come full circle into the place prepared for him by God.

The leaves are for the healing of “nations”.

 

[1ofthem]

This is a good inquiry.

The gist of the reason is found in Ephesians 3:9-10 "to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places..."

In essence, it was always the intent of God to show His majesty through the church to the powers and principalities in heavenly places (Satan and his angels).

In this, God is not only right to chose humans as His heirs, but, through the saints, He also appears righteous to those who opposed Him from the beginning.

Thanks, for the reply Aaron56.

I've recently been trying to put more study into all of the different Eschatological beliefs. . Appears now, there is even more to consider. I've discovered there are also pre, post, and amillennialism views that I am also going to have to study and put some thought into. Man, this is a lot to digest...lol

Thanks, your replies as always are very courteous, informative, and helpful.

 

[Aaron56]

The leaves are for the healing of “nations”.

Oh, I see.

The Greek word is ethnos. It is the word from which we get "ethnic". We think of nations as a certain geographical area defined by clear borders. Here (and in many other places in scripture) it is defined as a people group with the same ancestors.

Again, as I posted above, the tree represents a work already complete: the nations are healed; and a work that continues without end: the nations will remain healed. Partly, I believe it stands as an ebenezer, or something to signify the original plan of God.

Remember, this is the Bride, the Lamb's wife. God said, "I will show you (John) the Lamb's wife..." and after he is carried to a high mountain John beholds a city. So, we know, these verses are to be taken allegorically. This is like in Revelation 5:5 when the angel says to John "Behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah...!" and when John turns to look, he beholds a Lamb that has been slain.

This is the same person: Christ Jesus. The Lion corresponds to His unwavering and absolute rule and the Lamb corresponds to the manner in which power and authority was given to Him: by preferring others over Himself and dying for the sins of men.

 

[Aaron56]

Thanks, for the reply Aaron56.

I've recently been trying to put more study into all of the different Eschatological beliefs. . Appears now, there is even more to consider. I've discovered there are also pre, post, and amillennialism views that I am also going to have to study and put some thought into. Man, this is a lot to digest...lol

Thanks, your replies as always are very courteous, informative, and helpful.

You're quite welcome and it is my pleasure to help.

The more I learn the more I realize what I don't know.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Lol, I do not know where you got all that…but…ok.

Well, for starters (and if you are one who doesn't mind viewing a post from a different thread--saves me a bunch of typing, a task of which I AM INCREDIBLY SLOW at doing)... then take a look at a few examples of passages I'd point out to you (...I would've changed up a few words and added clarification, but ran out of edit time):

Post #433 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4646345



Those passages, along with what the disciples' Q of Jesus in Matt24:3 was BASED ON, meaning, what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 when the angels will "reap" (note that no one is being "resurrected" in Matt13 or in Matt24-25, these are "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age which thereafter commences)

 

[Mindwrencher]

Well, for starters (and if you are one who doesn't mind viewing a post from a different thread--saves me a bunch of typing, a task of which I AM INCREDIBLY SLOW at doing)... then take a look at a few examples of passages I'd point out to you (...I would've changed up a few words and added clarification, but ran out of edit time):

Post #433 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4646345



Those passages, along with what the disciples' Q of Jesus in Matt24:3 was BASED ON, meaning, what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 when the angels will "reap" (note that no one is being "resurrected" in Matt13 or in Matt24-25, these are "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age which thereafter commences)

Thank you for your response. I agree to disagree, lol. Jesus said there is an “hour” coming in which all that are in the graves will come forth. I simply cannot reconcile that with a millenial kingdom on earth.

 

[Mindwrencher]

The people in 20:4a are not the identical people being spoken of in 20:4b (who alone are the ones having been killed / martyred / beheaded in the SECOND HALF of the 7 year period... so of course, it says of THESE, "and they lived" [same word used of Jesus in 2:8--G2198--to mean "lived again" after having physically DIED], because these DO need to be "resurrected" (they've DIED) IN ORDER to "reign with Christ" for the 1000 yrs.

The ones spoken of in 20:4a are distinct, and the wording HERE parallels that found in Daniel 7:22 "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" [see also vv.[25],27]. I see these (Rev20:4a / Dan7:22) as "STILL-LIVING" saints at the time of the end of the 7 year period (commonly called the "Trib"), just as Dan12:12 is saying there will be "still-living" saints existing at the end of the Trib who will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (where the word "BLESSED" in 12:12 parallels about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the same time-slot and same circumstances).

The ones in 20:4a are not the same persons as in 20:4b (though BOTH are "saints" of the Trib years, as I see it)[/QUO

I don't prescribe to the Pre-trib rapture. At present, I lean more toward post-trib.

The one thing I can't harmonize with any of the beliefs... pre, mid, or post-trib is an actual 1000 year Millenial Kingdom Reign.

This doesn't make sense to me in any of the contexts.

Why would all these things be done, then for some reason the devil is let loose again after 1000 years to deceive the nations? Who is he going to deceive after that point? It makes no sense to me in the least. So I really can't see how there could be two millennial reigns.

Essentially the "First Resurrection" has TWO "comings to life", one before the thousand years, and one after the thousand years, BOTH of which are described as the "First Resurrection". And the apostle says that "Those" in this first resurrection, those before the thousand year and those after the thousand years will "reign with Christ for one thousand years.
And that is the rub.

 

[Mindwrencher]

So, here's the passage from the New King James version:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The location of the is where I believe you get off track. The "rest of the dead" are not resurrected for judgement until Revelation 20:11.

The "first resurrection" refers to "the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness..." etc. They are the ones who "..shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

This seems fairly elementary so I won't banter this issue with you any more.

Peace,
Aaron56

Essentially the "First Resurrection" has TWO "comings to life", one before the thousand years, and one after the thousand years, BOTH of which are described as the "First Resurrection". And the apostle says that "Those" in this first resurrection, those before the thousand year and those after the thousand years will "reign with Christ for one thousand years.
And that is the rub. This "First Resurrection" has TWO episodes of "Coming to life".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Essentially the "First Resurrection" has TWO "comings to life", one before the thousand years, and one after the thousand years, BOTH of which are described as the "First Resurrection". And the apostle says that "Those" in this first resurrection, those before the thousand year and those after the thousand years will "reign with Christ for one thousand years.
And that is the rub.

Where are you getting the word "those [PLURAL]" in verse 5??

The word in question is "this [αὕτη hautē ; singular]" (v.5b)





"The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were completed. THIS [singular--the one having just been spoken of in 20:4b] is the resurrection the first [adj]." (i.e. "the resurrection OF LIFE"; not "the resurrection of damnation/judgment" which comes AFTER the 1000 yrs)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

John 5:25 - "Truly, truly I say to you, that comes an hour and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard will live."

Is it your understanding that the reference here (in the same chapter) to "an hour" refers to a singular 60-minute "hour" (alone, and no other time-frame beyond those "60 minutes")?

 

[Dean4u2c]

My take on it is that Satan will come to earth, before Jesus, claiming to be God and will deceive many into worshipping him, II Thes 2:1-4. There are some that know this is going to happen and will not bow down to Satan nor worship him. They will be delivered up before Satan to testify against him and expose his lies, Math 10:16-20. The rest of the world will be deceived and worship Satan thinking he is God and will fall away to him.

When the real Lord returns, at the last or 7th trump, those that stood against Satan will be taken in the first resurrection and reign with the Lord for 1,000 years, Rev 20:6. The rest of the people will suffer a spiritual death due to worshipping Satan, Rev 20:5. During the 1,000 years, Satan will be locked up and the truth will be taught to all that were deceived, Rev 20:1-3. At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan will again be released to deceive the people into worshipping him as God, Rev 20:7-8. All those that choose to follow Satan after being taught the truth for 1,000 years will go into the lake of fire and be so-to-speak uncreated. Their smoke rises forever. This is the second death.

Those whose names are not written in the book of life at the White Throne Judgment will also go into the lake of fire, Rev 20:11-15. Those that overcome through the blood of Christ and the Word of God, will enter into eternal life to forever be with the Lord.

 

[Aaron56]

Insult? I apologize. I do not mean to offend you.

The tree seen in the City of God correlates to the one God showed Ezekiel.

"Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine."

The health of the trees is juxtaposed against the swamps that "will not be healed". The life and health of the tree signifies the healing of the land; only in such a land can such a tree grow. In heaven, there is only this type of tree (which I believe is a representation of something holy).

In heaven, no healing is necessary. It's my belief this tree is the tree of life in Genesis 2; man has come full circle into the place prepared for him by God.

Wow! Talk about a resurrection!

I would have added: the Tree of Life represents Christ. In heaven, the Tree IS Christ: what is in heaven is the eternal reality. God uses symbols to teach us eternal things. He specifically wanted us to connect the tree in the OT to the Tree in the NT so that we would see Christ.

 

[Blade]

Thanks. Hmm are you not doing the same thing you say others do? They're wrong but your interpretation is right? You said about others "they have it all figured out". Again you are doing what you say others are doing. How do two wrongs make a right? Anyway Caught up (Rapture) has already happened. But "the rest of the dead". For me those are not believers. So to say it very simply the 1st rez was chapter 4 the 2nd is after the 1k years and then judgement.

20:4 fulfillment PSa 2:8, Isa 9:6-7, 63:1-6, Jer 23:5,6, Dain 2:44, Hos 3:4,5, Amos 9:11-15, Mic 4:1-8, Zec 8:1-9 Mat 19:28, Acts 15:16-18 Rev 2:25-28, 11:15. I gave up on debating.. fun but after time some don't talk chat they get upset defensive. So this here is just small taste on this subject that I looked into studied. Some won't agree and praise God.

For me again Jesus said it best "and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.". Seems clear to me who the 2nd group is. There are 3 views I can think of on this. Some believe there is only one group the martyers. Other add a main group of believers as well as martyers. The word shows that the old testament saints will be part of this main group. Isa 26:19-21. Ez 37:12-14, Dan 12:2-13. To these a thrid view adds a group of living saints who have survived the tribulation. Blah blah blah. So Satan loosed again because those born during the 1k still have to like we already did make a choice.

Yeah I have no problem what so ever saying I am right or I could be wrong. So when I say "for me" I am saying "this is what I believe and why". I just touched this so far. Books have been written about this. So this here is the easy part. Where will I be in all this? Hear that? "Door shuts lights go out"

 

[Cameron143]

Thanks. Hmm are you not doing the same thing you say others do? They're wrong but your interpretation is right? You said about others "they have it all figured out". Again you are doing what you say others are doing. How do two wrongs make a right? Anyway Caught up (Rapture) has already happened. But "the rest of the dead". For me those are not believers. So to say it very simply the 1st rez was chapter 4 the 2nd is after the 1k years and then judgement.

20:4 fulfillment PSa 2:8, Isa 9:6-7, 63:1-6, Jer 23:5,6, Dain 2:44, Hos 3:4,5, Amos 9:11-15, Mic 4:1-8, Zec 8:1-9 Mat 19:28, Acts 15:16-18 Rev 2:25-28, 11:15. I gave up on debating.. fun but after time some don't talk chat they get upset defensive. So this here is just small taste on this subject that I looked into studied. Some won't agree and praise God.

For me again Jesus said it best "and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.". Seems clear to me who the 2nd group is. There are 3 views I can think of on this. Some believe there is only one group the martyers. Other add a main group of believers as well as martyers. The word shows that the old testament saints will be part of this main group. Isa 26:19-21. Ez 37:12-14, Dan 12:2-13. To these a thrid view adds a group of living saints who have survived the tribulation. Blah blah blah. So Satan loosed again because those born during the 1k still have to like we already did make a choice.

Yeah I have no problem what so ever saying I am right or I could be wrong. So when I say "for me" I am saying "this is what I believe and why". I just touched this so far. Books have been written about this. So this here is the easy part. Where will I be in all this? Hear that? "Door shuts lights go out"

He mentioned it first so that like "dibs " but for arguments.

 

[oyster67]

Essentially the "First Resurrection" has TWO "comings to life", one before the thousand years, and one after the thousand years, BOTH of which are described as the "First Resurrection". And the apostle says that "Those" in this first resurrection, those before the thousand year and those after the thousand years will "reign with Christ for one thousand years.
And that is the rub. This "First Resurrection" has TWO episodes of "Coming to life".

You are correct about the First resurrection unto Life having two parts, but incorrect about the times.
The first stage occurs at the pre-trib rapture and the second at the beginning of the Millenium. The only resurrection after this is the Second resurrection unto Damnation which occurs at the end of the Millennium.

 

[Evmur]

Rev 20. “4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”
This is where dispensationalists pick and choose how to “interpret” scripture.
Notice that in verse 4 the “beheaded” souls and those not succumbing to the “beast” come to life and reign with Jesus for one thousand years.
Dispensationalists will jump to verse 6 and insist that every christian will reign with Christ in one huge millenial reign.
But read it carefully.
The beheaded souls and those not marked by the beast are the only ones that come to life and reign in verse 4. The rest of the dead come to life AFTER the thousand year reign and that coming to life is described as the first resurrection.
Then John says that those in that first resurrection will reign with Christ for one thousand years.
Notice that the beheaded souls and those not marked by the beast simply “come to life” with no mention of having been resurrected.
So…does John indicate two separate thousand year reigns? Because he is certainly explicit that those souls mentioned in verse 4 reign for one thousand years. After which the “rest” of the dead are resurrected in a “FIRST RESURRECTION”!
And in verse 6 these rising in the FIRST resurrection ALSO reign with Christ for one thousand years AFTER the souls in verse 4 had already reigned for one thousand years.
But dispensationalists will try to fancy footwork their way out of TWO MILLENIAL REIGNS OF CHRIST.
Nice to have a doctrine like “Dispensationalism” where you can pick and choose how passages of scripture can be interpreted in obvious deference to what scripture actually says.
Problem: In Rev 20 dispensationalists cannot explain the TWO MILLENIAL REIGNS without perverting the obvious words in the scripture

you admit there will be a Millennial reign, that is a new dispensation isn't it? ... have you been marked by the Beast? nor have I, we shall reign.

 

[Evmur]

You are correct about the First resurrection unto Life having two parts, but incorrect about the times.
The first stage occurs at the pre-trib rapture and the second at the beginning of the Millenium. The only resurrection after this is the Second resurrection unto Damnation which occurs at the end of the Millennium.

... unto judgement