"The rich man And Lazarus..."

Without me explaining anything. Let's use your evaluation that believers go to heaven immediately upon death, which means what. That means every believer of the past right now would be in heaven correct (Abraham, Isaac, Daniel, David, so on and so on)?

Please fit that thought with this:
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [a]who is in heaven.

And this:

Acts 2
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

Exactly!! This is what Paul said about physical death:

2 Cor 5:6-8
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Paul contrasts being alive in the body and away from the Lord, or being absent from the body (dead) AND to be present with th Lord.

Real clear. Shoots down the idea of "soul sleep" immediately.[/QUOTE]

There are about 6 verses people use to justify immediately going to heaven. I'm so glad you brought this up as someone did two days ago.


The 2 Corth 5 post is a bit harder to explain only because of terminology/translation. For example, the word body, could it mean a physical body, sure it could. Could it also mean something else, sure, and do we have examples of when Paul talked about a "body" but wasn't referring to a physical body but instead was using it as a metaphor, yes, the body of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:14-5:9

14 knowing that He who raised (G1453, to be awaken from sleep) up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God.


16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen (our resurrected glorified bodies) are eternal.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body (body of Christ) we are absent from the Lord (Because he is in heaven apart from us).

7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The Judgment Seat of Christ
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present (with him at his second coming when the body of Christ and Christ join) or absent (in our current state without Him), to be well pleasing to Him.

Notice what that verse DOESN'T say, it doesn't say "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord," even though that is how it's common paraphrased in Christian songs and speech and how it is understood.

It doesn't say "to be absent from the body=present with the Lord"

Paul isn't comparing being in his physical body now and what it would be like if he dies and goes to heaven to be with the Lord. Paul is comparing the body of Christ now versus the resurrection when the body of Christ joins with His bride, and the body of Christ in the resurrection which is finally joined with the husband (Christ) is better than how it is now.

In fact, along with the word glory (always pertaining to the resurrection), do a word search in your NT on the word body, it almost always refers to the body of Christ (usually by Paul).

Start back in 2 Corth 4:12, it's a line of argumentation in which he points to the resurrection (14) and our hope of glory(17), which are not yet seen (18) because we have not yet be resurrected.

As another point people talk about is Moses and Elijah, lets look at is because the same term "glory" is applied there.

Please read the entire passage and compare its counter part Luke 9:28-35. It was a vision of the future, not of something that was literally occurring 2,000 years ago.

Matt 17:9
9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

Luke 9:28-35

28 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His [a]decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. 33 Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.

34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is [c]My beloved Son. Hear Him!”

Again, word search in your NT on "glory" it is a term that is used for a state of being at resurrection and not before. Christ didn't become glorified until after he rose from the dead. His appearance being altered and clothing changing is also seen in the future at his second coming (ex:Rev 1:13-4). No on has been resurrected because Christ has not yet returned, therefore Moses and Elijah are also not yet in their glorified state (as seen in the vision).

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

you failed to answer either of my questions.
in fact you completely avoided both of them.

please try again.

First let's deal with the word hell; where else did Jesus use this word, and when are the wicked tossed there?

This isn't the same word as hades/shoel/grave/pit, it's a proper noun, it' s place.

Mat 10:28 AndG2532 fearG5399 notG3361 (G575) them which killG615 theG3588 body,G4983 butG1161 are notG3361 ableG1410 to killG615 theG3588 soul:G5590 butG1161 ratherG3123 fearG5399 him which is ableG1410 to destroyG622 bothG2532 soulG5590 andG2532 bodyG4983 inG1722 hell.G1067

G1067, Gehenna -> Valley of Hinnom, Tophet, Valley of Slaughter: Jer 7:31-34, 19:1-12
Location: Just south of Jerusalem

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1067/kjv/tr/0-1/

Mark 9:43-44

43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [a]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell (G1067), into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 [c]where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Isaiah 66:22-24

22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Now that we see it's during the "new heavens and new earth" that the wicked will be thrown into Gehenna and all flesh will look upon the corpses year after year when they go up to Jerusalem to keep the Feasts and Sabbath. Meaning, "hell" isn't some mystical unknown place in another realm, it's literally south of where the Kingdom will be.

Verse in question:
Matthew 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul life. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul life and body in [a]hell.

Who has the power over life, God. Don't fear those you can kill you now. Fear the one who can kill you now and take away your life of the future (after life).

Contrasting body=present state versus life=eternal life.

Compare the two verses, soul can be defined as life.

Mat 10:28 AndG2532 fearG5399 notG3361 (G575) them which killG615 theG3588 body,G4983 butG1161 are notG3361 ableG1410 to killG615 theG3588 soul:G5590 butG1161 ratherG3123 fearG5399 him which is ableG1410 to destroyG622 bothG2532 soulG5590 andG2532 bodyG4983 inG1722 hell.G1067

Mat 6:25 ThereforeG1223 G5124 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 Take no thoughtG3309 G3361 for yourG5216 life,G5590 whatG5101 ye shall eat,G5315 orG2532 whatG5101 ye shall drink;G4095 nor yetG3366 for yourG5216 body,G4983 whatG5101 ye shall put on.G1746 IsG2076 notG3780 theG3588 lifeG5590 moreG4119 than meat,G5160 andG2532 theG3588 bodyG4983 than raiment?G1742

gleaning a spiritual interpretation of a passage does not make its literal interpretation dismissible.

again, please, a third time, i admonish you all in the presence of the Spirit:

Jesus Christ is not a liar.

i repeat:


Please explain to me why Goliath had 4 brothers.

Then explain to me why actual historical events should be excluded from having spiritual meaning, and why a spiritual lesson being understood from a Biblical account indicates it cannot be a literal event or based in any legitimate worldview?

I didn't respond to these, because Goliath having 4 brothers has nothing to do with the parable rich man and Lazarus, however Jesus speaking to the Pharisees who were Levites, and the fact that Levite had 5 brothers is relevant to Jesus using it in the parable.

Not to mention everything the Levites were doing, was ridiculed in Malachi, Jesus names it in Luke 16:14-18, right before the parable.
On top of that all the Jews including Levites considered Abraham to be their Father; kinda in the parable.

Bringing up Goliath is irrelevant.

2. I'm assuming you when you say "historical events" you mean the conversation that Jesus had with the Pharisees, and not including the Rich man and Lazarus as real people and real events.

In that case, there is nothing to be drawn out of the Rich man and Lazarus parable on a moral/spiritual or learning lesson other than, don't do what the Pharisee's did.

i do not agree with your manipulation of the text, but haven't you realized that by making this argument you admit that life persists after the death of the body, defeating your own position?
for Christ says do not fear the death of the body, but The One Who has power to take both body and life?
therefore "life" by God's definition is dissociated with the death of the body, and your own arguments self-refute.

but this is only an interesting aside -- please answer my original question to you in the previous post.

yes i know.
as i said.

so please do.

you are absolutely mistaken.

the entire scripture is intricately interconnected unlike any text in all of history.
all of it speaks of Christ -- all of it -- and He is God, and God is One. Q.E.D.
to have made such a remark informs me of your illiteracy and disrespect for the Word.
but you will see these things and more in time

you only fail to see the connection - and failing to even recognize that there must be one is indicative of the current state of your scholarship.

go wherever you learned the "5-brothers" interpretation and see if you can find a "4-brothers" one also.
if you don't, then dismiss your teacher as insufficient and keep searching.

God's Word is infinite, bruh.
He is not a liar.

keep learning
increasing in the knowledge of God
never calling Him a liar

I admit there is eternal life....... in the resurrection

There is no contraction.

I compared 2 passages within the same book and demonstrated how translators translate the same word into soul and life. If you translate them consistently; there is no confusion.

It's not manipulation; I'm not taking a word and giving it my own meaning; look at the word. Again, the same translator used two different words in English for the same Greek word. That's called translator bias; translating to fit their theological position.

this is an utter failure to comprehend the infinite word of God, IMO

the moment we say "there is nothing more to be gleaned" from even a single phrase in scripture is the moment our ears become dull, our eyes turn blind, and we perish in vain humanist intellectualism.



we could spend the next 1,000 years drawing out truth from this single little well of the Word, and never draw it dry.

you've given up.
far, far to early -- infinitely far from the prize

we can't start until we fundamentally agree on one thing:

Christ is telling the truth.





i have not read this whole thread, but from what i can see, the conversants do not yet agree on this point.
several of you are still arguing that what He says cannot be believed.
this point is absolutely removed from whether it is a parable concerning hypothetical persons or a real man named Lazarus and a real rich unnamed pharisee.

Jesus is either teaching an accurate worldview or a false, lying, demonic worldview.
choose which you believe

Oh you mean like this intricately interconnected unlike any text:

Soul sleep? Sure.

Job 14:10-12

10 But man dies and [a]is laid away;
Indeed he breathes his last
And where is he?
11 As water disappears from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dries up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake
Nor be roused from their sleep.

It's funny that even my Thomas Nelson NKJV since 1798 center column reference links Job 14:10-12 with Isaiah 51:6 and 65:17, 66:22; that is, they wouldnt be roused from their sleep until the heavens are no more (Second coming). I even colored them so you can see the connection.

Is 65:9
9I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

Is 65:17-19
For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or [f]come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

Is 66:22-24
For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another (Feast days),
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Mark 9:42-44, Jesus says the wicked will be tossed into Gehenna which is south of Jerusalem which is in the "New Heavens and New earth, by quoting Is 66))

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [j]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]hell (Gehenna, just south of Jerusalem), into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 [l]where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Revelation 21

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Is 25:6-9
And in this mountain
The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of [c]choice pieces,
A feast of [d]wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.
7 And He will destroy on this mountain
The surface of the covering cast over all people,
And the veil that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death forever,
And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces;

Is 35:10
And the ransomed of the Lord shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Is 51:11
So the ransomed of the Lord shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness;
Sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

1 Corth 15:26
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Revelation 20:13,14
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.

please answer my questions.

Christ God is clearly presenting a particular worldview:
is Jesus teaching the truth or a doctrine of demons?

it is really this simple:
do you believe Him or not?

Fast forward to this side of the Resurrection.

Wow! That’s profound. And very inspiring. ❤️

If Jesus is the only one who came down from heaven and is the only one who ascended to heaven, then how can anyone else but Jesus be in heaven (not including angelic beings and the Father).

John 3:13 No on has ascended to heaven BUT he who came down from heaven, THAT IS, the Son of man who is in heaven.
1 person....

Acts 2
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

no you’re wrong.

If I have an opinion I’ll frame it as such, but when I know the answer I’ll put it forward as a fact. If I don’t know the answer I’ll simply say that.

So quit assigning opinions to me where I didn’t claim one. It’s intellectually dishonest. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

You mean like this?

“And there is no spiritual or moral lesson for any living person to follow in the account of Laz and the rich man”
-FreeGrace2

Comment #405

If you had been reading the long line of context, you would have understood this better.

PeacefulWarrior was being rhetorical.

An individual from your crowd is the problem; own it.