"The rich man And Lazarus..."

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Jan 31, 2021
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Ezekiel, when prophesying to the dry bones had to call on the four winds to breathe into the flesh of those men to make them live again. If those men souls were not dead along with their flesh there would be no need for the breathe of life because according to you souls don't die.
You missed the entire point. Where did the "four winds" breathe into? "into the FLESH of those men to make them live again". And you missed it completely!!! The "flesh" refers always to the body, and never to the soul, which is immaterial and not of flesh.

The Bible does not teach unsaved souls are immortal.
Let's be clear. The Bible teaches that the resurrected bodies of the unsaved will be destroyed in the LOF and their souls will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever."

There couldn't be a more clear statement about that.

Even the souls of the elect had to be resurrected.
Well, wrong again. In EVERY description of "resurrection", it is the BODY that will be resurrected. What verse do you think refers to souls being resurrected?

And if that were true, then you must believe in soul sleep or soul death. Show me anywhere in the Bible where that is described.

Resurrected from what? Death!

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The body. The body. The body.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
What doctrine/teaching is threatened by being a real account of real people?
A lot of these guys believe in some form of "soul sleep."

It is understandable, and very human to not want to think of loved ones that are suspected of not being saved, to not be in torments now, and after the judgement.

I think we can all get onboard with that thought. But I trust God. His ways are not our ways. His Word says otherwise. And I believe this account of the rich man, and the doctrines surrounding hell, are there for us to more earnestly spread The Gospel unto Salvation.
Right!

And I've already shared with these guys that Jesus was clear that it will be "more tolerable" for some than others on their judgment day.

So, obviously, the LOF isn't "same degree of hotness" for everyone. Not a one size fits all thing.

I believe that moral unbelievers will have it more tolerable than evil unbelievers, who will have it much less tolerable.
 
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Type in cup in a online concordance and read every verse about cup.....never mind you don't compare Spiritual with spiritual.
never mind is right! I know what Jesus was praying about in the garden. I don't need to look up "cup". It is used in various ways in different contexts. But the context for the garden of Gethsemane is real clear.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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This parable is pre-crucifixion and pre-resurrection.
Giving us a glimpse into where OT souls go after death.

Furthermore, Abraham said the rich man’s family wouldn’t have been persuaded if someone were raised from the dead anyway.
Neither do believers who hold to false doctrines even after they have been shown the truth.

So this is old covenant. People don’t go to torment for having good things in life and there isn’t a warning of a place of torment in Moses and the Prophets anyway.
So what? And you are totally proficient in everything that Moses and Prophets wrote??

What else do you need to know to see this is a parable?
A wild imagination, for starters.

Extremely curious why we have a number of people here rejecting these plain facts and attacking others who don’t agree.
Define "attacking" please. I can't imagine what you think that word means.

What doctrine of knotted up and twisted scripture are you protecting that would unravel and collapse if exposed for the falsehood it is?
Oh, oh, oh. You're ATTACKING ME!!! :ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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This conversation is not really about whether it is a parable or not.

Whether it is a real historical event or a parable has no substantive bearing on whether Christ is presenting a false, lying, pagan and demonic worldview or He is presenting accurate truth of the reality of existence, life, death, afterlife and the coming judgement.

What this conversation is really about is cessation of existence vs continuation of existence after the spirit is separated from the physical body.

IMO Christ is giving a very clear teaching of that with the narrative He speaks to us.

Again I think paramount to understanding this passage is confessing that He is not a liar.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
And there is no spiritual or moral lesson for any living person to follow in the account of Laz and the rich man
Tell that to the Holy Spirit.
I don't need to. He knows I fully understand that the account of Laz and the rich guy is real.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The teaching in the account of Laz and the rich guy is where the saved and unsaved went after death.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Please explain to me why the Rich man had five brothers.
Apparently his mom and dad were rather active.

Luke 16:28
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment
This shows that Jesus was teaching us that once in the afterlife, unbelievers will realize they are in a bad place. The rich guy didn't want his 5 bros to join him.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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This conversation is not really about whether it is a parable or not.

Whether it is a real historical event or a parable has no substantive bearing on whether Christ is presenting a false, lying, pagan and demonic worldview or He is presenting accurate truth of the reality of existence, life, death, afterlife and the coming judgement.

What this conversation is really about is cessation of existence vs continuation of existence after the spirit is separated from the physical body.

IMO Christ is giving a very clear teaching of that with the narrative He speaks to us.

Again I think paramount to understanding this passage is confessing that He is not a liar.
Bingo!! (y)
 
Sep 19, 2022
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That is simply an inane question. So the straight answer is that his parents wanted a large family. And there is noting wrong with that. Jesus of Nazareth also had a large family.
And here is the problem. You have no background knowledge of the OT scriptures', nor do you stay in the context of the passage.

The context of the passage is Jesus speaking to the Levitical priests:

Luke 16:14

4 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they [f]derided Him. 15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Who were the Pharisees? They were from the tribe of Levites, who were to be the priesthood (go read your OT). How many brothers did Levite have, 5.

Five Brothers – the other 5 tribes of Israel from the same mother – Leah
a. Levi had 5 brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun (Gen. 30)

The entire Rich man and Lazarus parable is about the destruction of the Levitical priesthood (the Rich man).

B. The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
1. A allegory/parable, not literal history. One of the earliest manuscripts, Codex Bezae (5th century, Italy),
begins vs. 19 as follows: Ειπεν δέ και ετεραν παραβολην – "But He spoke also another parable, ..."
a. The last in a series of parables spoken to the Jewish leadership. (compare Lk. 16:1)
2. The “Rich Man” – the apostate Jewish Priesthood – Levites
a. Justified themselves (Luke 16:15 / Mal. 1:6; 2:14,17; 3:8,13)
b. Improperly divorced wives and remarried (Luke 16:18 / Mal. 2:13-16)
c. “Lovers of money” (Luke 16:14) who had “robbed God” (Mal. 3:8-10).
d. Dressed in purple and fine linen
1. “Purple” was the clothing of kings (Mark 15:17).
2. “Fine linen” was the clothing of priests (Ex. 39:27-29).
3. The Hasmonean Dynasty (from the Maccabees) were “priest-kings,” and continued to
rule under Herod the Great.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
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You missed the entire point. Where did the "four winds" breathe into? "into the FLESH of those men to make them live again". And you missed it completely!!! The "flesh" refers always to the body, and never to the soul, which is immaterial and not of flesh.
So you're telling me the four winds was oxygen?

Let's be clear. The Bible teaches that the resurrected bodies of the unsaved will be destroyed in the LOF and their souls will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever."

There couldn't be a more clear statement about that.
What would be the purpose of resurrecting the bodies of unsaved people just to destroy them?

Well, wrong again. In EVERY description of "resurrection", it is the BODY that will be resurrected. What verse do you think refers to souls being resurrected?
Do we agree that at the last day the bodies of the saved souls with Christ in heaven will be resurrected? If we agree, then that passage I posted said that those saints would live with Christ for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is the 1000 years eternity? Do those 1000 years end?

If the 1000 years are not eternity and the 1000 years end then the first resurrection can not be at the last day, Judgment day.

And if that were true, then you must believe in soul sleep or soul death. Show me anywhere in the Bible where that is described.
I believe what the Bible tells me.
Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Something that needs to be resurrected was dead!
 
Mar 4, 2020
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When the majority is WRONG, there is EVERY reason to resist. Obviously.
The majority is often wrong, but they aren’t about this particular parable. That’s progress you seem to be able to recognize that the majority can be wrong, but you more or less follow the majority in lockstep on a many number of points.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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This conversation is not really about whether it is a parable or not.

Whether it is a real historical event or a parable has no substantive bearing on whether Christ is presenting a false, lying, pagan and demonic worldview or He is presenting accurate truth of the reality of existence, life, death, afterlife and the coming judgement.

What this conversation is really about is cessation of existence vs continuation of existence after the spirit is separated from the physical body.

IMO Christ is giving a very clear teaching of that with the narrative He speaks to us.

Again I think paramount to understanding this passage is confessing that He is not a liar.
Totally agreed and I hope it’s for the same reasons I think it is, but possibly not.
 
Sep 19, 2022
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You missed the entire point. Where did the "four winds" breathe into? "into the FLESH of those men to make them live again". And you missed it completely!!! The "flesh" refers always to the body, and never to the soul, which is immaterial and not of flesh.


Let's be clear. The Bible teaches that the resurrected bodies of the unsaved will be destroyed in the LOF and their souls will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever."

There couldn't be a more clear statement about that.


Well, wrong again. In EVERY description of "resurrection", it is the BODY that will be resurrected. What verse do you think refers to souls being resurrected?

And if that were true, then you must believe in soul sleep or soul death. Show me anywhere in the Bible where that is described.


The body. The body. The body.
Yet again, reading the Bible through a Greek lens; assuming your English translation properly conveys the meaning of words.

Verse in question:
Revelation 20:10

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:10 AndG2532 theG3588 devilG1228 that deceivedG4105 themG846 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophetG5578 are, andG2532 shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

How the bible uses the word aion doesn't mean a never ending amount of time; it means until the end of the age, but until you actually look at the 415 times that word is used and how it is used, you will continue to think it means "forever and ever", that is, an infinite amount of time.

Strong's Number G165 matches the Greek αἰών (aiōn),
which occurs 415 times in 351 verses in the LXX Greek.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g165/kjv/tr/0-1/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g165/kjv/lxx/0-1/#lexResults

For example, did the Levitical priest continue forever? Well that word "everlasting" is the word aion. Have fun.

Exo 40:15

And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Yet again, reading the Bible through a Greek lens; assuming your English translation properly conveys the meaning of words.

Verse in question:
Revelation 20:10

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:10 AndG2532 theG3588 devilG1228 that deceivedG4105 themG846 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophetG5578 are, andG2532 shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

How the bible uses the word aion doesn't mean a never ending amount of time; it means until the end of the age, but until you actually look at the 415 times that word is used and how it is used, you will continue to think it means "forever and ever", that is, an infinite amount of time.

Strong's Number G165 matches the Greek αἰών (aiōn),
which occurs 415 times in 351 verses in the LXX Greek.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g165/kjv/tr/0-1/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g165/kjv/lxx/0-1/#lexResults

For example, did the Levitical priest continue forever? Well that word "everlasting" is the word aion. Have fun.

Exo 40:15

And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.
Bro, I’ve been there round and round in a different thread about this and there’s a few people who just won’t accept that. You’re new here so you should know that there’s a few folk who will argue until the cows come home long after being debunked.

I’m not trying to say don’t speak your mind, but just know that either be prepared for a long debate where you feel tired out of repeating the facts for 50 pages or try to find a way to reach these people.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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You would never call Jesus a liar but you called someone who loves Him dearly a liar who never would call Him a liar. You sure are an interesting character.

If I would apply your own judgements against you then you would be the liar. Really what this is is a disagreement of parable versus literal. I have all the proof I need and am unlikely to move on this particular point. So agree to disagree.
You sure are an interesting character.
💯 😎
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Bro, I’ve been there round and round in a different thread about this and there’s a few people who just won’t accept that. You’re new here so you should know that there’s a few folk who will argue until the cows come home long after being debunked.

I’m not trying to say don’t speak your mind, but just know that either be prepared for a long debate where you feel tired out of repeating the facts for 50 pages or try to find a way to reach these people.
And they’ll attack you, too. Call you names, falsely accuse you, say you’re going to hell, or you’re evil or something like that. Don’t take the bait and retaliate, they’ll definitely try to get you canned.

Let’s take the high road, the Jesus road, and rejoice in persecution. Yea, any hostility you face due to being a Christian will come with a reward in heaven.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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Thank you for your welcome to CC message, and you're righ


To make sure we are in the mind of Jesus, the apostles, and the Jews; when you say "the meek shall inherit the earth (matt 5:5)" where exactly do you think that is coming from?

I'm skipping some verse but read all of Psalm 37:

Psalm 37

9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,(Quoted by Jesus Matt 5:5)
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.



Inheritance of the Promised land:

The promise made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), Gen 12:7, 13:14, 15:18, 17:1-22, 27:4, 28:13, 35:12

As the NT points out, the promise of the Jews, the promise of the fathers, the promise to the Son, the promise to all those who put their faith in the Son would be an inheritance in that PROMISE that God made to THE FATHERS via a resurrection(Gal 3:16-20); not fluffy celestial place in another realm that people call "heaven" where their ghost fly's to.

Psalm 2:6-9 LXX
6 But I have been made King by Him, on Sion His holy mountain, 7 declaring the ordinance of the Lord. The Lord said to Me: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the Land for Your possession. 9 You shall shepherd them with a rod of iron; You shall shatter them like a potter's vessel.”



Psalm 2 quoted in the New Testament:
Psalm 2:1, 2 Acts 4:25, 26
Psalm 2:7 Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 ; 5:5
Psalm 2:8, 9 Revelation 2:26, 27; 12:5; 19:15
Psalm 16:5-11 LXX
5 "The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou art he that restores my inheritance to me. 6 The lines have fallen to me in the best places, yea, I have a most excellent heritage.


Psalm 16 quoted by Peter Acts 2:25-33 saying it refers to Christ.


Psalm 37:34
Proverbs 2:22
Proverbs 10:30
Isaiah 11:1-6, 9-16 1
Isaiah 61:1-7 LXX (Quoted by Jesus: Matt 3:16-17, 11:5 Luke 4:18-19, 7:22)
Isa 60:19-21 NKJV
21 Also your people shall all be righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.


Isaiah 65:9,17 LXX
9 And I will lead forth the Seed from Jacob and Judah, and He shall inherit My holy mountain, and My chosen ones and My servants shall inherit it, and they shall dwell there. ... (Is. 25:8, 35:10, 51:11, 65:19, 1 Corth 15:26, Rev 21:4).


Dan 12:1-13 NKJV

13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

Acts 7 NKJV, Did Abraham receive THE PROMISE made to him by God, NO!

3 and said to him, ‘Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.’ 4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on.

Acts 13:32
32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.


Acts 23:6

6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”

Acts 26:6-8 NKJV
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain.


Acts 28:20
20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”


Rom. 8:16-25 NKJV

16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Romans 9:1-9
to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. . .


” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Romans 15:4-13

4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the [a]patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have the hope. . .
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a [c]servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written:


Gal 3:16-18-29 NKJV
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. . .


26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 2:8-13, 3:6

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

Hebrews 6:12-18

12 that you do not become [a]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, . . . 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, [c]confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two [d]immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we [e]might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,

Heb 11:13, 39

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
What does this have to do with “today”?
 
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What does this have to do with “today”?
What is the hope of the promise to Fathers made by God?
What is the hope of the promise to Israel?
What is the hope of the promise to the Son?
What is the hope of the promise to all those who believe in the Son?

The point of all that I posted was to get on the same page that the HOPE of the PROMISE that all believers look forward to was the promise land via the resurrection of the body and access to the tree of life which is in the Garden (paradeisos) of God.

It would be impossible for the thief to be in the "paradise of God" after his death on the cross where the tree of life is at, because no one is in the Garden (paradeisos) of God UNTIL Christ returns and resurrects us.

I replied earlier to someone with this, but they refused to respond and ignored it, buy maybe you will consider it:

The word Paradise; it means a lush garden.

G3857 matches the Greek παράδεισος (paradeisos),

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3857/kjv/tr/0-1/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3857/lxx/lxx/0-1/

Gen2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden (paradeisos) eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen 3:22-24
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


Ez 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden (paradeisos) of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Isaiah 51:3
καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω Σιων καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον G3857 κυρίου εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως

Isaiah 51:3

3 For the Lord will comfort Zion (Jerusaelm),
He will comfort all her waste places;
He will make her wilderness like Eden,
And her desert like the garden of the Lord;
Joy and gladness will be found in it,
Thanksgiving and the voice of melody.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise (paradeisos) of God.

What was the Garden (paradeisos) of God that every Jew including Jesus knew about, read your OT; it's clear as day. The Garden of God is in the future kingdom when He sets up his throne in Jerusalem (Zion). We cannot have access to it UNITL He returns and all are resurrected, therefore, the thief is not in the Garden (paradeisos) of God yet, because Christ has not yet returned.

The tree of life was here on earth in which Adam was kicked out from least he eat and live forever (Gen 3:22-24). The paradise (Garden) of God is in the future Kingdom where it grows 12 fruits, one for each month in Jerusalem (Ez 47:1-12 ->Rev 22:1-3). We are dependent on eating from the tree of life in order to live forever; just like Adam was, but he was kicked out and then saw death.

To have access to the tree of life which is in the Garden (paradeisos) of God, we must be resurrected from the dead and given access to it, which if we are in Christ; He will give use access to it (Rev 2:7).

Bible translator do a disservice of transliterating the word from paradeisos (Greek) to Paradise (English) instead of translating the meaning of the word from paradeisos (which mean a garden) to its equivalent Garden (English).

If they actually translated the word instead of transliterating it, Luke would read:

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in the Garden.”

or in Revelation 2:7:

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Garden of God.” ’
 
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What does this have to do with “today”?
On top of what I said in my last post, what is the context of the statement the thief said to Jesus?

Luke 23:39-43

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, [a]“If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The hope, like all others including the thief wasn't to immediately ascend to heaven after death; it was the hope of the future kingdom, Christ second coming... the hope of being resurrected and eating from the tree of life... the hope of inheriting the promised land and sitting down with the fathers

Matthew 8:11-12

11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12

Acts 7
4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on.


Acts 13:32
32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.

Acts 23:6

6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”

Acts 26:6-8 NKJV
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain.

Acts 28:20
20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”

In the pervious post, I started in Genesis of the promise made my God and bunny trailed the OT prophecies (Psalm, Isaiah, Ezekiel etc. and the rolled into the NT, to show what "the hope" or "the promise" of all believers has always been the same.
 
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You missed the entire point. Where did the "four winds" breathe into? "into the FLESH of those men to make them live again". And you missed it completely!!! The "flesh" refers always to the body, and never to the soul, which is immaterial and not of flesh.


Let's be clear. The Bible teaches that the resurrected bodies of the unsaved will be destroyed in the LOF and their souls will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever."

There couldn't be a more clear statement about that.


Well, wrong again. In EVERY description of "resurrection", it is the BODY that will be resurrected. What verse do you think refers to souls being resurrected?

And if that were true, then you must believe in soul sleep or soul death. Show me anywhere in the Bible where that is described.


The body. The body. The body.
You know what is great about living in modern times, we don't have to base our understanding of words on the thoughts of others. We can use bible programs to see how words are used, so that we have a proper understanding.

Please tell me when did Adam become a soul, was it before the breath of life entering him or after?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Gen 2:7 And the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 (H853) manH120 of the dustH6083 ofH4480 the ground,H127 and breathedH5301 into his nostrilsH639 the breathH5397 of life;H2416 and manH120 becameH1961 a livingH2416 soul.H5315

You don't have a soul, you are a soul. Humans are souls, animals are souls. Without the breath of life you cease to exist. Without blood running in your body, you cease to exist, this is defined in Genesis 1:20-2:19, 9:3-16.

The word is neh'-fesh (H5315) it is translated inconsistently in the KJV as: life, , kill, creature, thing, being, persons, soul, mind, lives, man, heart, one, dead, body, beast, themselves, they, breath.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5315/kjv/wlc/0-1/

Animals are souls:
Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, H5315 I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Gen 37:21

And Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands; and said, Let us not kill H5315 him.

There's about 757 times this is used in the bible. Have fun.