A Few of the Scriptures that Make me Post-Millennial

Can you cite a source for this?

Clearly hyperbole is a literary device used at times by the author/s of Scripture.
Just as is/are prose, poetry, parallelisms, metaphors, similes, euphemisms,
idioms, personification, and parables (there may be others ). Chiasms,
acrostics, alliteration, allusion, imagery, paradox... to name a few more

In H.E. 3.39, Eusebius of Caesarea provides both information about Papias and quotations from Papias (hyperlinked in blue)

Imagine that they would write and speak in a similar fashion as we do.
So rather than assume some normalcy in language use, people will create absurd doctrine. Sounds about right.

2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.942


(a) Irenaeus and the majority of other fragments about Papias affirm that Papias knew John the apostle (Shanks, 288-291). Irenaeus’ testimony is particularly weighty given that he is even earlier than Eusebius and plainly states that Papias was a “hearer of John” (Haer. 5.33.4).

(c) Papias states plainly that he “learned from the elders” (Hist eccl. 3.39.3). A few sentences later, Papias describes the “words of the elders” as “What Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the disciples of the Lord, were saying” (Hist. eccl. 3.39.4). In other words, it seems that Papias uses the word “elders” to refer to the apostles.

There were two people named John. One was John the Revelator and the other John the presbyter...

It is believed that it was the second that he knew, not the Apostle, not the Revelator. Elder can be anyone.

Imagine that they would write and speak in a similar fashion as we do.
So rather than assume some normalcy in language use, people will create absurd doctrine. Sounds about right.

Adam Clarke, (1762-1832) Methodist Commentary. This being the 3rd representative of Baptists, Presbyterians and Methodists from the past. All three men of God were post-millennial.

"Both these parables are prophetic, and were intended to show, principally, how, from very small beginnings, the Gospel of Christ should pervade all the nations of the world, and fill them with righteousness and true holiness." Comment on Matt. 13:33

"Of the increase of his government-this Prince has a government, for he has all power both in heaven and in earth: and his government increases, and is daily more and more extended, and will continue till all things are put under his feet. His kingdom is ordered-every act of government regulated according to wisdom and goodness; is established so securely as not to be overthrown; and administered in judgment and justice, so as to manifest his wisdom, righteousness, goodness, and truth. Reader, such is that Jesus who came into the world to save sinners! Trust in HIM!" Comment on Isaiah 9:7

For a run down of the post-mil position through history, it can be found online:

https://postmillennialworldview.com/2019/05/03/preterism-in-history/

John Gill (1697-1771), Baptist Historic Premil does not take Ezekiel 40-48 literally, nor does he insert a 2500+ year gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel. Inserting a non-existent gap is a corruption of God's word and is only done to fit a man-made scheme of prophecy.

In the introduction to Ezekiel 40-48 Dr. Gill writes:
"The Jews dream of a third temple to be built, by their vainly expected Messiah; but nothing is more clear than that the true Messiah was to come into the second temple, and by that give it a greater glory than the former ever had; as is evident from Hag 2:6 and, according to Malachi, he was to come suddenly into his temple, which could be no other than the then present one, Mal 3:1, and into which Jesus came, and where he often appeared and taught, as well as entered into it with power and authority, as the Lord and proprietor of it; by which he appeared to be the true Messiah, as by many other characters; see Lu 2:22."
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/geb/ezekiel-40.html

Dr. Gill commenting on Daniel 9:24:
Or, "concerning thy people, and concerning thy holy city" {s}; that is, such a space of time is fixed upon; "cut out" {t}, as the word signifies; or appointed of God for the accomplishment of certain events, relative to the temporal good of the city and people of the Jews; as the rebuilding of their city and temple; the continuance of them as a people, and of their city; the coming of the Messiah to them, to obtain spiritual blessings for them, and for all the people of God; who also were Daniel's people and city in a spiritual sense, to which he belonged; and likewise what was relative to the utter ruin and destruction of the Jews as a people, and of their city: and this space of "seventy" weeks is not to be understood of weeks of days; which is too short a time for the fulfilment of so many events as are mentioned; nor were they fulfilled within such a space of time; but of weeks of years, and make up four hundred and ninety years; within which time, beginning from a date after mentioned, all the things prophesied of were accomplished; and this way of reckoning of years by days is not unusual in the sacred writings; see Ge 29:27.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/geb/daniel-9.html

John Gill, being a historical pre-mil as can be seen by the two references above, is nothing like a dispensationalist, but he does teach pre-mil in his text on theology -

Of the Millennium, or Personal Reign of Christ with the Saints on the New Earth a Thousand Years
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk7-ch8.html

Gill describes what he calls the "Spiritual Reign of Christ", which is how I understand the millennium, figurative language of 1000 years representing the time between the 1st and 2nd advent -
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk5-ch14.html

"3d. There will be abundance of peace in this reign, even of outward peace; no more wars, nor rumours of wars; swords and spears will be beaten into plowshares and pruning hooks; and war shall be learnt no more: no more persecution, nor persecutors: there will be none to hurt and destroy in all God's holy mountain: and such as were like wolves, and leopards, and bears, shall be as tame as lambs, kids, and calves; and shall feed and lie down together: there shall be an abundance of peace of every kind, and of it no end; and particularly internal and spiritual peace; for as grace will be high in exercise, joy and peace will increase and abound; see #Ps 72:7,8 Isa 9:7 11:6-9.

3e. There will be a great degree of holiness in all saints, of every class and rank; all the Lord's people will be righteous; "Every pot in Jerusalem, and in Judea"; that is, every member of the church, "shall be holiness unto the Lord"; in his sight, and to his glory; yea, "holiness to the Lord shall be upon the bells of the horses"; signifying how common it should be, and appear in every civil action of life, as well as in religious ones; and that holiness shall then be as common as unholiness is now; and that it shall be visible in the lives and conversations of saints; and be seen of all; see #Isa 9:21 Zec 14:20,21."

"Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." (John 12:27, 31, KJV)

"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." (Matt 12:28-29, KJV)

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"(Heb 2:14, KJV)

i am aware of both John's. and you make a valid point.

but i tend to agree with Ireneaus, who was around during Papias' lifetime, and assumedly knew since they both were alive at the same time.

Yeah but there's always been an air of doubt, it's why the views didn't actually gain any kind of widespread adoption.

Dinner was nice (Cornish game hens.. lol) I believe I am tired though so not sure I'll make an actual post in the other thread before bed. If not I'll do so with my morning coffee...

God bless you and yours..

In H.E. 3.39, Eusebius of Caesarea provides both information about Papias and quotations from Papias (hyperlinked in blue)

"Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." (John 12:27, 31, KJV)

"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." (Matt 12:28-29, KJV)

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"(Heb 2:14, KJV)

I actually cannot figure out what you think. I've found your writings rather confusing. As to the early church beliefs, I still must stick to the Scriptures. Pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib mean nothing to me because I find Matt. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 are describing the tribulation leading up to 70 AD. The arguments over the tribulation I find baseless as I also reject the idea of a "rapture". I find the word "rapture" three times in the REB and once in the Weymouth, but having nothing at all to do with the second coming.

Adam Clarke, (1762-1832) Methodist Commentary. This being the 3rd representative of Baptists, Presbyterians and Methodists from the past. All three men of God were post-millennial.

"Both these parables are prophetic, and were intended to show, principally, how, from very small beginnings, the Gospel of Christ should pervade all the nations of the world, and fill them with righteousness and true holiness." Comment on Matt. 13:33

"Of the increase of his government-this Prince has a government, for he has all power both in heaven and in earth: and his government increases, and is daily more and more extended, and will continue till all things are put under his feet. His kingdom is ordered-every act of government regulated according to wisdom and goodness; is established so securely as not to be overthrown; and administered in judgment and justice, so as to manifest his wisdom, righteousness, goodness, and truth. Reader, such is that Jesus who came into the world to save sinners! Trust in HIM!" Comment on Isaiah 9:7

For a run down of the post-mil position through history, it can be found online:

https://postmillennialworldview.com/2019/05/03/preterism-in-history/

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14, KJV)

That was certainly fulfilled when the Apostle Paul was living:

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8, KJV)

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col 1:23, KJV)

You need to read Josephus and you'll see that those signs did occur leading up to 70 AD and a web site has it placed clearly in chronological order:

http://www.josephus.org/warChronologyIntro.htm

Also,on the following link, scroll down to "Omens of Destruction" -

http://www.josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm#omens

I actually cannot figure out what you think. I've found your writings rather confusing. As to the early church beliefs, I still must stick to the Scriptures. Pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib mean nothing to me because I find Matt. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 are describing the tribulation leading up to 70 AD. The arguments over the tribulation I find baseless as I also reject the idea of a "rapture". I find the word "rapture" three times in the REB and once in the Weymouth, but having nothing at all to do with the second coming.

I actually cannot figure out what you think. I've found your writings rather confusing. As to the early church beliefs, I still must stick to the Scriptures. Pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib mean nothing to me because I find Matt. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 are describing the tribulation leading up to 70 AD. The arguments over the tribulation I find baseless as I also reject the idea of a "rapture". I find the word "rapture" three times in the REB and once in the Weymouth, but having nothing at all to do with the second coming.