Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

Hi Free Grace. Thanks for your responses. Happy to continue.

I want to clarify one thing, since I see you mentioned it in your response to Magenta. Earlier the views of John Calvin and St. Augustine were discussed. Both wrote about "the perseverance of the saints" but meant, imho, different things. For Calvin said, in essence, "if you are justified, you cannot but persevere; and therefore, if you did not persevere, you were never justified". This is what we call OSAS. What St. Augustine said was different. It can be summed up or paraphrased like this: "When you believe in Christ and are baptized, you pass from death to life and are justified. After you are justified, you must pray for perseverance. If you receive what you pray for, you will persevere. Those who persevere in justifying faith and grace are saved". Both speak of perseverance, but in different senses.

To quote directly: "Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

I also agree, btw, that we cannot take a single verse and make a doctrine of it. We have to study the whole of Scripture before formulating a doctrine. I agree with you that the NT exhorts us to persevere in many places, but that doesn't mean it's not a gift. Want a verse for that? How about Phil 1:6: "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

God began the Good Work of Justification in us, by His Grace, and He Himself will bring it to completion in us, by His Grace, if we co-operate. That's what St. Paul is teaching us here.

Now, to your post. I see that you quoted all of Mat 24:1-13. But that doesn't take anything away from the strength of the conclusion that "perseverance to the end" is necessary for final salvation. If anything, it's even clearer in context. Notice: "At that time many will turn away from the faith" (vs 10) while "but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." (vs 13).

These are two different sets of people. Let's call them Set A and Set B.

Set A: Receive Justification by Grace through Faith. But do not persevere in the Faith. Turn away from it. Are you saying set A are still saved? If so, that contradicts Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." How can anyone go to Heaven who doesn't have the Faith?

Set B: Receive Justification by Grace through Faith. Also receive Perseverance by Grace through Prayer. These never turn away from the Faith and are saved. It is these of whom the Lord says that no one shall ever snatch them from His Hand and His Father's Hand. It means He is preserving them by His Grace, He is causing and helping them to persevere. Thats why I say Perseverance is His Gift.

So I don't reject Jn 10:28. I accept it wholeheartedly. While one verse is not sufficient to build a doctrine, any doctrine that rejects even one verse of Scripture is surely wrong. I believe Jn 10:28 APPLIES to those in Set B and not in Set A. That's the only way to reconcile all the passages. So for e.g. among verses we discusses, Heb 10:29 speaks of those sanctified but lost. Jn 15:2 of branches that fell away.

Would you like to address either of these passages now? I hope that covers all of your post, Free Grace. God Bless you.

In Christ,
Xavier.

Romans 10:17 + Galatians 3:5

Then educate me.

While on this earth..no one is saved.
Born again yes...if God's commandments are followed.
"
your pope"....LOL...I am not catholic...."

Your comments have nothing to do with OSAS.

Here are the two passages I mentioned earlier, in their complete context, in case any one feels they are taken out of context:

John 15:

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And Hebrews 10:

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Well, I wouldn't. Perseverance is staying IN the faith. It's what man can do. Preservation is staying saved, which is what man cannot do, but God has promised to do. I think that is a big difference.

I disagree with Mr. Augustine about believing and being baptized to "pass from death to life and are justified". Passing from death to life is by believing the gospel per John 5:24 and being justified is also by believing the gospel per Rom 5:1.

Baptism has nothing to do with either.

How would you describe "co-operating" with God? Specifically.

Maybe you haven't noticed that there is no mention of "final salvation" in the Bible. There is only "salvation". And that salvation occurs WHEN one believes, per John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Salvation is IMMEDIATE when a person believes. That's why it is called "saving faith".

Actually, the context in Matt 24 DOES remove the notion that there is a "final salvation". Endurance in THAT context says one who endures will be saved. The issue isn't soul salvation, but deliverance from the dangers during the tribulation.

v.10 is part of the description of the tribulation.

As everyone knows, we must understand the WHOLE counsel of God. There are 2 verses that you seem not to know about.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These verses show clearly that it those who NEVER (have not) believed that will be condemned.

Sorry, but I don't believe you. You only think you do, but your "2 sets" of people are not real. The only 2 kinds of people are the saved and the unsaved. The saved have believed. Even if they don't currently believe. I know many hate that idea, but John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 support it clearly.

I agree completely.

And there's the rub. You have put your own ideas into the verse, in order to make it work for YOU. But Jesus never did such a thing.

He spoke plainly and clearly about recipients of eternal life. Period. Then He told us the result of being a recipient of eternal life.

This is very straightforward. You've added to what Jesus said by your "2 sets" of people, which Jesus did not do.

No it's not. The problem is that you apparently think that if a believer ceases to believe (doesn't endure), they lose salvation. But John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 don't allow that presumption.

No it doesn't. John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 don't allow for your presumption.

I never use figures of speech/metaphors to form doctrines. That agricultural metaphor simply means discarded from service. Not "thrown into hell".

Thanks for your reply. Now I'm looking forward to your introduction to Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 and how they fit into your system.

Really? Then Jesus must have been confused or very confused in Johbn 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

In this one verse Jesus covered all tenses:

past tense: has crossed over from (spiritual) death to (eternal) life.
present tense: has (possesses) eternal life. Right now. Currently.
future tense: will not be judged This is an eternal security guarantee.

I think you need to talk to Jesus about your presumption.

Do you see the irony in your statement?
God’s grace is sufficient.

Ok, so it seems to me that you, Free Grace, are saying a person can fall away from the Faith, yet still go to Heaven, because he once believed. Can you confirm if that is correct?

I will respond in more detail subsequently, but for now, can you comment on how you reconcile that with the passage below:

"38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

God clearly says (1) He has no pleasure in those who draw back and (2) they draw back unto perdition, meaning they are lost.

But you are saying they are still saved, right? Care to explain that in more detail? God Bless.

Why is salvation of the Lord but persevering in Him is of man? This is a very weak argument.

I seem to see 2 variations/versions of OSAS.

OSAS v1: If you are justified, you will persevere. If you don't persevere, you were never justified. (contradicted by: Heb 10:29)

OSAS v2: If you are justified, you will never be lost, even if you apostatize into infidelity to Christ. (contradicted by: Heb 10:39).

Hmm.

What is correct, Mr. XavierJesusLovesIndia, is that Jesus plainly guaranteed eternal life to those He gives eternal life.

Are you having a problem with the guarantee that Jesus gives EVERY recipient of eternal life? It seems so.

There is nothing to "reconcile". I reject that salvation can be lost, for ANY and EVERY reason.

iow, there is NO REASON for a believer to lose salvation.

Why not? Because Jesus guarantees that EVERY recipient of eternal life shall never perish. He didn't create 2 sets of people the way you have because there is no need to.

When a person believes in Christ for salvation, John 5:24 says they POSSESS eternal life.

End of discussion, really.

How about this: salvation is of the Lord as is preservation.

Persevering is about spiritual growth, and not all believers grow up spiritually. We know this from what Paul said to the congregation at Corinth.

1 Cor 3-
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

This was written to believers.

There are a lot of variations of OSAS. But there is only 1 biblical view; the view that Jesus taught in John 10:28.

I think we have to maybe consider the pov of a Roman Catholic here.

The Roman Catholic is indoctrinated if you will into the church from birth, if their parents are Roman Catholic. They're baptized into the church as infants. They're indoctrinated into the church as infants by being instructed in the Catechism (A collection of questions and answers that are used to teach people about the Christian religion),

Part of the agreement a Roman Catholic enters into when joining the church is to be in accord with the Catechism. The Catechism asserts the RCC is infallible. I.E. perfect and never wrong.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

To be clear, the RCC insures their congregation trust the church, have faith, in the church as emissary's between themselves and God.
To go against the teachings of the church is not only going against the church, and by affiliation per their catechism, God. Which would then imperil their state of grace. Which is secured by compliance to the church Catechism.

It is therefore an insulor covenant the individual Roman Catholic is committed to. Not by their own free will, in most cases. But because they are inducted into the church as infants forward.

And this hardwiring insures in most cases they believe the church is absolute in dictating as emissary of God what it means to be Catholic.

Ask a Catholic if they are Christian. Likely, the answer will be, they are a Catholic. Later, if at all, they'll say they are a Christian.

This is offered to give a bit of insight when encountering a Roman Catholic in these discussions.

The first allegiance of a Roman Catholic, differentiated from the definition and understanding of the word Catholic, meaning universal, is the church.

Excerpted from the Catechism linked earlier.

"
III. The Knowledge of God According to the Church
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12
37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:
Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13
38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error".14 "

It is user error.

It seems you often copy your user name and then also copy and paste from an earlier post
to begin your message, after which is the quote form another, followed by more from you.
I'm not sure why you do this. Are you trying to keep continuity of conversation forefront?

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47
Was John wrong, then, to say we may know we have eternal life?

We cannot know we have eternal life unless we know we are saved.

Titus 3:4-5
Was Paul also wrong?

Job 33:27b-28
Even Job knew he had been/was saved. Was he wrong also?

Peter, their, the RCC, first pope, according to Constantine, was married.
Odd given the celibacy policy afforded priests today.

Further, Peter, who did not celebrate Ostara, aka Easter, or recognize a Trinity, was not the first pope if the Roman's Catholic church. Emperor Constantine was!
I dentifying himself as such as head of the church after legalizing the faith of the Christians within his realm, as “Pontifex Maximus”, i.e High Priest.
https://www.sabbathcovenant.com/christianitythegreatdeception/TheFirstPopeofRome.htm