Does the Bible solemnly warn of eternal damnation?

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Magenta

Magenta

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John146 said:
Romans 7
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
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Rightly dividing is important, yes. Death is spoken of in a number of ways/contexts.

However, when we are told that the dead know nothing, it is
obviously not referring to people who are spiritually dead to God.

Neither is being dead to sin to be taken to mean one is no longer breathing.

When those who are facing the second death are revived to life, they are still referred to as "dead."
 
R

Runningman

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Dino246 said:
Which brings me back to my original question: From what are you saved? If it's merely the second death, and the second is much like the first, why would that concern you, since you would never know the difference?
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Jesus saves Christians from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9). Even though the lake of fire is referred to as the second death, that doesn't mean the death is instant or painless. Revelation 2:11 says that the second death hurts, it won't be a cakewalk for anyone no matter how hard they gnash their teeth and wail to distract themselves from the pain.

I think people not found in the Lamb's book of life will see the difference between the first and second death. The first death people have the chance of dying peacefully and painlessly while the second death will be guaranteed to hurt beyond imagination for as long as necessary. Revelation 14:10 says God's wrath will be undiluted upon those in torment, but it stops short of directly saying they are tormented forever and I believe that's because the eventual end is the second death like Revelation 20:15 says.

That's my honest take on it.
 
Dino246

Dino246

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Runningman said:
Jesus saves Christians from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9). Even though the lake of fire is referred to as the second death, that doesn't mean the death is instant or painless. Revelation 2:11 says that the second death hurts, it won't be a cakewalk for anyone no matter how hard they gnash their teeth and wail to distract themselves from the pain.

I think people not found in the Lamb's book of life will see the difference between the first and second death. The first death people have the chance of dying peacefully and painlessly while the second death will be guaranteed to hurt beyond imagination for as long as necessary. Revelation 14:10 says God's wrath will be undiluted upon those in torment, but it stops short of directly saying they are tormented forever and I believe that's because the eventual end is the second death like Revelation 20:15 says.

That's my honest take on it.
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Thanks. I'm not sure I agree, but I appreciate the explanation and will consider it.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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The testimony of Arnobius (died c. 330 A.D), demonstrates how belief in the Biblical doctrine of the conditional immortality of the soul became corrupted with Greek ideas associated with punishment of the immortal soul in the eternal fires of Hades. Arnobius believed in annihilationalism; which it to say that the penalty of the wicked is a form of `everlasting destruction', in the sense that the destruction of the impenitent sinner has an everlasting result, which is eternal death, or annihilation. However, he also imbibed elements of pagan philosophy, in the idea that at death the soul is punished in Hades for an indefinite period of time, at which it is tormented in the flames of hell according to the punishment which is due to it. His account of the punishment which is meted out to the wicked gives us one of the first extant records which depicts the wicked as suffering in hell for indeterminate periods according to the gravity of their sin, which thus depicts God as delighting in the torment of the wicked, so that satisfaction might be made to God as an atonement for their sin.

Arnobius' account formed the basis of later `orthodox' Protestant theology which portrays the souls of the lost as suffering in torment in hell-fire for eternity - and which later also coalesced in the Catholic Church under Pope Gregory I (c. 540 A.D - 604 A.D, who is also called `the Great'). He was the first Pope who came from a monastic background, wrote voluminously, and following in the footsteps of Augustine, who had previously written copious amounts of material on this subject one hundred years before him, gave the doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul and the eternal punishing of the wicked in the eternal fires of hell the official sanction of the Church. He was canonized as a Saint, is regarded as a Doctor of the Church, and is often credited with founding the medieval papacy.

By the early sixteenth century, this belief had become so entrenched within the Catholic Church, that in the convening of the 5th Lateran Council in 1513, Pope Leo X condemned the doctrine of the conditional mortality of the soul as abject heresy. By contrast, the early Church Fathers were aware of the Platonizing influences which were already threatening the infant Church when the disciples of Christ were still alive, and strenuously resisted this, for as this exhortation from Ignatius Theophorus (c. 30 - c. 107 A.D.) demonstrates, they believed that when we die we `sleep together' in the dust of the earth, and then `awake together as the stewards, and associates, and servants of God' when Christ returns:

`Labour together with one another; strive in company together; run together; suffer together; sleep together [in death]; and awake together [in the resurrection], as the stewards, and associates, and servants of God.' (`Epistle to Polycarp', Ignatius, A.N.F, ch. 6)

The Syriac translation of `awake together' has been translated as `rise together', which indicates that it is indeed death which Ignatius was speaking of when he used the word `sleep'. Ignatius suffered martyrdom during the reign of the Roman Emperor Trajan, (98 -117 A.D.) and wrote this epistle to Polycarp (69 - 155 A.D), who suffered martyrdom in 155 A.D for his faith. Both men are reputed to have sat at the feet of John, the `beloved disciple of Christ'. John also testified to this same belief, for he tells us in his gospel that when Christ described Lazurus as `sleeping' in the grave, His disciples believed that He was speaking of natural sleep: `Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Nevertheless Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".' (John 11: 13 - 14)

Obviously, John `the beloved disciple of Christ' was instructed by Jesus Himself of this doctrine. The apostle Paul was a contemporary of John, and was in agreement with John on this doctrine. Ignatius and Polycarp were students of John and received this doctrine from him, for the Ignatian epistle to Polycarp reveals that not only were the two men close friends, but Polycarp received instruction from Ignatius, and the two men were in agreement on this doctrine. Therefore we have an unbroken testimony of witnesses from Jesus Himself, to John, the apostle Paul and the early Church Fathers Ignatius and Polycarp, who all taught that we `sleep' in the grave until the Resurrection, at which time our corruptible bodies are rendered incorruptible, and we `put on' immortality (1 Cor. 15: 51 - 58). source
 
Dino246

Dino246

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Runningman said:
Jesus saves Christians from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9). Even though the lake of fire is referred to as the second death, that doesn't mean the death is instant or painless. Revelation 2:11 says that the second death hurts, it won't be a cakewalk for anyone no matter how hard they gnash their teeth and wail to distract themselves from the pain.

I think people not found in the Lamb's book of life will see the difference between the first and second death. The first death people have the chance of dying peacefully and painlessly while the second death will be guaranteed to hurt beyond imagination for as long as necessary. Revelation 14:10 says God's wrath will be undiluted upon those in torment, but it stops short of directly saying they are tormented forever and I believe that's because the eventual end is the second death like Revelation 20:15 says.

That's my honest take on it.
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Revelation 14:10-11 say...

they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

It's true that verse 10 doesn't hint at eternal torment, but verse 11 certainly does.

Revelation 20:14-15 say...

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

That seems to suggest that the "second death" is not directly comparable to the first death, which is a final termination to earthly, fleshly existence. The second death, in that view, is not "termination" but it is no less "final".
 
J

John146

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Magenta said:
Rightly dividing is important, yes. Death is spoken of in a number of ways/contexts.

However, when we are told that the dead know nothing, it is
obviously not referring to people who are spiritually dead to God.

Neither is being dead to sin to be taken to mean one is no longer breathing.

When those who are facing the second death are revived to life, they are still referred to as "dead."
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I appreciate the honest view. I am not above learning. In my opinion, there are too many passages that speak of eternal fire and torment, plus the many verses describing souls feeling, speaking, and suffering.

I believe Paul taught that when a person died that his soul was present with the Lord right after death. The below verses teach that the soul is immediately transfered to the third heaven when a person dies (2 Cor. 12:2).

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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John146 said:
I appreciate the honest view. I am not above learning. In my opinion, there are too many passages that speak of eternal fire and torment, plus the many verses describing souls feeling, speaking, and suffering.

I believe Paul taught that when a person died that his soul was present with the Lord right after death. The below verses teach that the soul is immediately transfered to the third heaven when a person dies (2 Cor. 12:2).

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
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Has anyone denied that? We are in Christ right now...
 
J

John146

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Magenta said:
Has anyone denied that? We are in Christ right now...
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Yes, but it specifically says to depart and be with Christ…do you not think that means to die, depart from the body to be with Christ? It’s plain to me.

Absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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John146 said:
Yes, but it specifically says to depart and be with Christ…do you not think that
means to die, depart from the body to be with Christ? It’s plain to me.

Absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
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Yes.

The funny thing about this? People will say "sleep" is a metaphor for wakeful awareness.
 
Melach

Melach

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FaithWillDo said:
Dear Dino246 and Nehemiah6,
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The Doctrine of Hell is lie from Satan and is certainly not taught in scripture. Christ came to earth to save us from death, which is the true penalty of sin.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Where is "hell" in any of these verses above? It's not there because it is a lie and a product of mankind's evil carnal nature.

As John 10:10, Christ came to give us "life" from the penalty of sin which is DEATH. But He also came to give us a more abundant life, too which is a life free from sin along with a relationship with our Creator. This is the salvation that Christ brings to mankind and is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Why do you believe and teach that Christ will fail to save mankind?

The Old Covenant is based on man's works and is physical and outward. But the New Covenant is different. It is 100% the work of Christ and His work is spiritual and inward. He will change us all from within by coming to each of us with the gift of the Holy Spirit. Until He comes and gives us this gift, no one can be saved or call Jesus "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Saving mankind is solely the responsibility of Christ. If it weren't, no one would be saved. Mankind was created spiritually marred and carnally minded. In that condition, no one will even seek the true God and if they did, they would not be able to understand Him.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In this age, however, Christ is ONLY coming to and saving the ones who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are His "First Fruits" of His harvest of mankind. They are first to be saved but they are not the last. The final and great harvest of mankind occurs at the end of the final age.

The Feast of First Fruits and the Feast of Tabernacles "type" these two harvests of mankind.

So how does "judgment" fit into mankind's salvation you might ask?

Christ's judgment is represented by the spiritual term "fire". All mankind will be judged by fire because without judgment, we cannot be saved.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Those who "receive a reward" are the heirs, the First Fruits. There reward is to have "life during the ages" and to reign with Christ while He brings in the full harvest of mankind in the final age. Those are the ones who shall "suffer loss" but they will still be saved "yet so as by fire".

Salvation requires both the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and Christ's judgment (fire):

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Look at these verses:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

We are saved by the judgment of Christ (fire).

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Who perverts judgment? Mankind does.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

At the end of the final age, this verse will be TESTIFIED to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God is love and loves never fails. Why do you believe Christ will not accomplish what Daniel prophesied below:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Joe
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but dear friend. im not afraid of death. not even the kind that makes me cease to exist forever with no hope of a future resurrection. bring it on today, no problem.

this would be paradise not only to me, but for all atheists as that is exactly what they believe happens. once you die you gone, only difference in your view is you die twice instead of once. no biggie.
 
R

Runningman

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Dino246 said:
Revelation 14:10-11 say...

they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

It's true that verse 10 doesn't hint at eternal torment, but verse 11 certainly does.
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Apocalyptic language doesn't always mean exactly what it appears to mean, but if it does then other Biblical examples should be taken into consideration. Below I'll just place Revelation 14:10 side-by-side with Isaiah 34:10 where it's written about God's judgement of Edom.

Revelation 14:10
11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Isaiah 34:10
10It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

The smoke is apparently rising forever in Revelation and Isaiah. The bit about Edom in Isaiah 34:10 is about a place that is physically located on Earth. The context of the passage of Isaiah 34 says the streams of Edom will be turned to pitch, the dust into brimstone, and the land into burning pitch. It says the fire will not be quenched day or night, the smoke will rise forever, and no one will pass through forever.

So in theory we should be able to apply a hermeneutic from Isaiah 34 to Revelation 14 and find consistency. However, that's impossible because present day Edom, now known as an area in southwest Jordan, is not burning forever.

In conclusion, forever is not always literal.

Revelation 20:14-15 say...

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

That seems to suggest that the "second death" is not directly comparable to the first death, which is a final termination to earthly, fleshly existence. The second death, in that view, is not "termination" but it is no less "final".
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From what I see, resurrection is not possible after the second death. We don't have any known third resurrections or third deaths. From what I see, the second death is final and absolute.
 
F

FaithWillDo

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Melach said:
but dear friend. im not afraid of death. not even the kind that makes me cease to exist forever with no hope of a future resurrection. bring it on today, no problem.

this would be paradise not only to me, but for all atheists as that is exactly what they believe happens. once you die you gone, only difference in your view is you die twice instead of once. no biggie.
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Dear Melach,
I understand that you have no fear of death, some people don't. However, you are not understanding my post. The spiritual death that Christ will cause us to experience will be replaced with a new spiritual birth. We will go from being a "marred" spiritual being who is subject to sin, to being a perfect spiritual being who will never sin again. This is called conversion. Christ will give this gift of salvation to all mankind someday and it will be without us asking Him to do it and without our permission. Someday, Christ will come to you, too and convert you. Then your life will be highly valuable to you. Only then will understand.
Joe
 
Magenta

Magenta

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#93
Melach said:
but dear friend. im not afraid of death. not even the kind that makes me cease to
exist forever with no hope of a future resurrection. bring it on today, no problem.

this would be paradise not only to me, but for all atheists as that is exactly what they believe happens.
once you die you gone, only difference in your view is you die twice instead of once. no biggie.
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Hello, Melach. It is nice to see you being active again :) I hope all is well with you...

I wonder how many here have spent time speaking with atheists about their views on Christian beliefs.

It seems to be thrown around a lot, you know, this idea that they get what they want if death is the end.

Is this supposed to be some kind of deterrent to aligning one's beliefs with Scripture?

Because Scripture also says that God brings rain on the just and the unjust.

For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

"But then they get what they want!!!" It sounds like something a petulant child would say.

Besides that, atheists beliefs are all over the map when it comes to religious views on the end of life.

Some even complain how unfair it is that God will bar them from heaven. Yeah. They should not even think of such things, but they do. Don't expect them to be logical and rational just because they like to think they are more intelligent than theists.
 
Dino246

Dino246

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Runningman said:
Apocalyptic language doesn't always mean exactly what it appears to mean, but if it does then other Biblical examples should be taken into consideration. Below I'll just place Revelation 14:10 side-by-side with Isaiah 34:10 where it's written about God's judgement of Edom.

Revelation 14:10
11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Isaiah 34:10
10It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

The smoke is apparently rising forever in Revelation and Isaiah. The bit about Edom in Isaiah 34:10 is about a place that is physically located on Earth. The context of the passage of Isaiah 34 says the streams of Edom will be turned to pitch, the dust into brimstone, and the land into burning pitch. It says the fire will not be quenched day or night, the smoke will rise forever, and no one will pass through forever.

So in theory we should be able to apply a hermeneutic from Isaiah 34 to Revelation 14 and find consistency. However, that's impossible because present day Edom, now known as an area in southwest Jordan, is not burning forever.

In conclusion, forever is not always literal.



From what I see, resurrection is not possible after the second death. We don't have any known third resurrections or third deaths. From what I see, the second death is final and absolute.
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I'll grant your first point, and I'll grant that your second is valid, though I still don't see any fundamental distinction between that view and the one that isn't concerned about the first death either, and it leaves very little if anything at all from which to be saved. To me the whole thing appears to be going in a circle. The only thing to be saved from is a brief period of unpleasantness between the declaration of judgment and death itself... not so different from earthly death. I don't see enough reason for the sinner to be concerned.
 
T

TheIndianGirl

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JTB said:
Interesting response... can you elaborate on the bolded part?
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I was just referring to the hindrance/obstacle of why many people do not accept the resort (or Heaven). It's not that the homeless don't want to go the resort, but they don't accept/trust who you tell them you are. It is not a simple yes/no issue.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Runningman said:
Jesus saves Christians from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9). Even though the lake of fire is referred to as the second death...
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The wrath of God is no different than the Second Death which is eternal damnation (2 Thess 1:8,9). So you really need to understand this topic better.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Magenta said:
Where does the Bible identify annihilationists as liars? Nowhere.
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Any teaching which contradicts Bible truth is a lie. So since the Bible DOES NOT teach annihilation but eternal damnation, annihilationists are in fact liars -- deceiving themselves and others.
 
R

Runningman

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Nehemiah6 said:
The wrath of God is no different than the Second Death which is eternal damnation (2 Thess 1:8,9). So you really need to understand this topic better.
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You probably didn't mean to agree with me I am sure, but we agree. The second death is literally death and it's an eternal judgement. One detail I feel like needs mentioning is 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 says "eternal destruction."

I've heard people dream up something about people being continuously destroyed and rebuilt for eternity in order to explain "eternal destruction" because they require the human soul of those who have rejected the Gospel of Christ to have immortality. This can't be further from the truth.
 
R

Runningman

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Nehemiah6 said:
Any teaching which contradicts Bible truth is a lie. So since the Bible DOES NOT teach annihilation but eternal damnation, annihilationists are in fact liars -- deceiving themselves and others.
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Yet you've produced no proof of that. You've been desperate to assassinate the character of anyone who disagrees with you for as far as the eye can see looking through your posts. This is a typical tactic of intellectually dishonest people. You can't win with ideas, but you hope that if you at least make your opponents seem evil then you've won.
 
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Magenta

Magenta

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Runningman said:
Yet you've produced no proof of that. You've been desperate to assassinate the character of anyone who disagrees with you for as far as the eye can see looking through your posts. This is a typical tactic of intellectually dishonest people. You can't win with ideas, but you hope that if you at least make your opponents seem evil then you've won.
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It is sad isn't it?
 
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