Are we in the end times ?

And the thing that baffles me, who are ALL these people? Doesn't the Holy Spirit convict people, even if they are new believers, that something isn't right?

So maybe someone new to the faith needs to learn to discern the spirits 'whether they are of God'?

When I first came to California and I was invited to a couple of charismatic churches (also Crystal Cathedral--more the prosperity gospel) --e.g. Vineyard and another one--can't recall the name. I had never heard of speaking in tongues or slaying in the spirit-- I was 20 and had been going to church since I was six.

(Now, I am not against speaking in tongues if you are speaking in a KNOWN language and somebody is there to interpret----so far I haven't seen that at any church I've ever attended--it's always been people babbling all at once--precisely what scripture says NOT to do.)

In any case--my heart was pounding inside of my chest--I felt angry and agitated--the whole thing was unsettling/fake and to me devilish. My aunt had taken me to one--she was educated--her husband had been at one time a Presbyterian minister, but no longer believed. The other was a friend--sort of a hippie, but smart, 'seemingly' down to earth; however, neither was the kind of person I would expect to be hoodwinked by this nonsense. Sorry, but I would think you'd have to have a pretty low IQ--apparently not....

Maybe you should identify here some of Furtick's false teachings so that we can know whether or not to avoid him.

Seriously? Of course it applied to him as well!

Goodness, He actually believes pauls writings did not apply to paul??

wow

If you don't agree with what I say about Furtick and the rest of them, you need to study it for yourself.

I agree--the Bereans studied the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true--I suggest you do likewise.

The False Teaching of Steven Furtick
https://godwords.org/the-false-teaching-of-steven-furtick/

I think that if Steven Furtick were a false prophet, no one would be speaking evil of him. All would be speaking well of him.

Did you check out his actual words and actual teaching as quoted? No need to defend anyone who presents false doctrines.

The False Teaching of Steven Furtick
https://godwords.org/the-false-teaching-of-steven-furtick/

The fact that @Dino246 likes Furtick is surely an indictment on him though...

More thoughtless slander.

I have simply reacted to your incessant x'ing out of my biblical posts.

My disagreement with your misinterpretations of Scripture has nothing to do with my comments on the article about Stephen Furtick, which you didn't even post.

It is speaking here of those who have not yet gone on to be with the Lord through physical death. Those who are still alive on the earth when the rapture comes.



Right....the Latin word for "caught up" is the Latin "rapturo".

So, what do you think it means for the church to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?



The firmament is the first heaven.

And it does not say in 1 Thessalonians that those who are caught up will immediately come back to earth. It is believed with a certain biblical basis that there will be seven years in which the church will partake of the "marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9) while the people on the earth are going through "Great Tribulation".

Are you one who believes that the church will go through the Great Tribulation?

I would ask you whether you think of God as a wife-beater then.



I do not believe that the doctrine of the rapture is heresy. It is actually taught by some of the largest mainline Protestant denominations (including the one that I now attend, Calvary Chapel).

a few notes as I read.

1. The passage says, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. while I agree it is a meeting, and it the lord coming to us. I do not see where it states we will immediately return with him. It just states we will be with him forever.

2. As for the word rapture. or more specifically, to be "caught up" I also agree, this was a latin translation or whatever from the greek. But it still in my view means the same. We are caught up "snatched" or "Siezed" into the clouds. where this meeting takes place.

as for returning. I am always limited by the fact we do not just meet, and come back. SOme things have to happen to us. Namely the bema seat judgment. The reciving of our glorified bodies. and everything else.

I am also limited to the fact we see resurrected being in the throne room with Christ as he opens the seals. How can this be if they have not yet been resurrected yet?

I am not for or against pre-trib or post trib. I believe it is a mystery and we will not know until it happens. All I can do is look to the word as a whole. and not just one small passage, and see what I see concerning end times and when and where the ressurection fits in.

Hope your feeling OK sis. I know your going through alot..

Again--a poor argument. There are ethical CEO's of companies and unethical--some who rob from their employees and customers and those who don't. A 'worker is worthy of his wages.' Even Paul who worked full time for the gospel said he continued to work [making tents] so that he wouldn't be a burden to the believers. He most certainly did not have a monthly salary to rely on.

"23 Are they servants of Christ? I know I sound like a madman, but I have served him far more! I have worked harder, been put in prison more often, been whipped times without number, and faced death again and again. 24 Five different times the Jewish leaders gave me thirty-nine lashes. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked. Once I spent a whole night and a day adrift at sea. 26 I have traveled on many long journeys. I have faced danger from rivers and from robbers. I have faced danger from my own people, the Jews, as well as from the Gentiles. I have faced danger in the cities, in the deserts, and on the seas. And I have faced danger from men who claim to be believers but are not.[a] 27 I have worked hard and long, enduring many sleepless nights. I have been hungry and thirsty and have often gone without food. I have shivered in the cold, without enough clothing to keep me warm."--2 Corinthians 11:23-27

Thanks for caring! Prayers are always coveted. Today God gave me great hope. I saw a hand physiotherapist and she made a device for my left hand, (which has subluxed all the tendons), and ulnar drift. It has been extremely painful to play flute on our worship team, although I do sing. I wore this device she made fitted to the hand, for 3.5 hours. When I went to practise, my hand didn't hurt! So, God is good. Plus, I don't have cancer. (Another story!)

Anyway, getting back to your questions.
1. We will always be with the Lord when he returns. And when he returns, there will be the Judgement! And judgement doesn't not happen in heaven, it happens on earth. Have you ever wondered why people would be taken to heaven, then they would be taken back to earth to stand before the Bema? It seems funny people would go to heaven before that point. Even in Jesus day they believed in paradise, where believers would wait till The Messiah, or Christ came.

It doesn't say "meet and return" in every English Bible I've read. So, I understand your concern. But, as I said up in this post you quoted, that apantesin does not mean just "meet." It means "meet and return." Bauer, BDAG, the best lexicon says it is meet and return. Apantesin is only found 3 times in the NT. Each time what happens is to meet and return. Like the Christians of Rome did, when they went out to meet the dignitary, Paul, and then returned with him to the city. Luke wrote Acts 28:15, who has the best and most difficult Greek in the New Testament, just ahead of Paul. Both men were excellent in their use of Greek - vocabulary, grammar and rhetoric. They used this low frequency word, so that Greek readers would understand that we won't just "meet" Jesus in the air, we will meet and return. And we will return to the earth for the Judgement. If Paul and Luke had used a different word for meet, then I would be in error. But since both of them used this word, they were both good enough writers in Greek to use this word, where the circumstances demanded "meet and return."

2. Yes we will be caught up in the air. But not the clouds. Jesus is coming in the clouds. But, we will not necessarily go up that high to meet him. It could be a foot, a 100 feet or a thousand. But low enough the air is still breathable, as no one will have glorified bodies yet. Nor is there a word about going to heaven. It simply is not there, in the text, or any other verse. Besides, apantesin tells us we "meet and return," so going to heaven would directly contradict that word.

As for us seeing Jesus opening the seals, remember what sort of genre Revelation is! It is apocalyptic, which means "revealed." John revealed it, he was in a vision. Revelation is not to be taken literally. It is symbolic. John faithfully recorded all the things he was shown. But he didn't have to understand it. People have combed through every verse of Revelation to make a detailed end times scenario. But that is not the purpose of the book. It was to reveal end times apocalyptically. And it does this well. We don't yet understand a lot of the symbols, but because John saw it as part of his vision, doesn't mean that we will be there, too. Although God will reveal the meaning, in the end. John certainly has not revealed people were even there, at this point, just lots of angels. So, will we see this? Time will tell!

I do agree the end times are a mystery. Anyone who thinks they have unraveled that mystery are deluding themselves. And yes, we need to know much more than just 1 Thess 4:17. I was exegeting that verse, to show that dispensationalist interpretations of the rapture do not work with the Greek. But yes, so much more to learn and know. I really don't think God wants us to understand the symbolism yet. But when he returns, that is when we will see him face to face to face, and we will all know!

My disagreement with your misinterpretations of Scripture has nothing to do with my comments on the article about Stephen Furtick, which you didn't even post.

I can tell you that the Christian circle where I am, he is not respected as a true Gospel preacher.

But there are thousands in this area falling for this prosperity Gospel and Furtick is the only one prospering in reality!