Are we in the end times ?

[Charlie24]

And the thing that baffles me, who are ALL these people? Doesn't the Holy Spirit convict people, even if they are new believers, that something isn't right?

So maybe someone new to the faith needs to learn to discern the spirits 'whether they are of God'?

When I first came to California and I was invited to a couple of charismatic churches (also Crystal Cathedral--more the prosperity gospel) --e.g. Vineyard and another one--can't recall the name. I had never heard of speaking in tongues or slaying in the spirit-- I was 20 and had been going to church since I was six.

(Now, I am not against speaking in tongues if you are speaking in a KNOWN language and somebody is there to interpret----so far I haven't seen that at any church I've ever attended--it's always been people babbling all at once--precisely what scripture says NOT to do.)

In any case--my heart was pounding inside of my chest--I felt angry and agitated--the whole thing was unsettling/fake and to me devilish. My aunt had taken me to one--she was educated--her husband had been at one time a Presbyterian minister, but no longer believed. The other was a friend--sort of a hippie, but smart, 'seemingly' down to earth; however, neither was the kind of person I would expect to be hoodwinked by this nonsense. Sorry, but I would think you'd have to have a pretty low IQ--apparently not....

It's greed Laura! The Holy Spirit is not dwelling in these people, they are not saved.

What is happening is exactly what Paul told us would happen.

2 Tim. 4:3-4

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

The "itching ears" is what Osteen, Furtick, etc, etc, are giving these people, what they want to hear.

They have turned from the truth and scripture and don't want to hear it.

They want to hear how they can prosper, and Furtick is feeding it to them.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Maybe you should identify here some of Furtick's false teachings so that we can know whether or not to avoid him.

The False Teaching of Steven Furtick
https://godwords.org/the-false-teaching-of-steven-furtick/

 

[justbyfaith]

Seriously? Of course it applied to him as well!

Goodness, He actually believes pauls writings did not apply to paul??

wow

Read 1 Corinthians 9.

And also, don't make comments about me if you are going to have me on Ignore.

Because that only means that you are being ignorant.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you don't agree with what I say about Furtick and the rest of them, you need to study it for yourself.

I'm not that interested in flocking to a teacher that has been identified as false just so that I can be another one who is trying to expose him.

If I run across him on youtube or television, I will pay closer attention.

I've seen him a few times on television and I didn't see anything inherently wrong with what he was saying.

I will stick to my Bible reading and will not run after the many teachers who captivate people's hearts with their teaching.

I know my Bible well enough that if anyone is saying anything inherently wrong, I will know what Bible verses contradict their position.

So I do not feel the need to be warned about anyone in particular that they are some kind of false teacher...

The Holy Spirit in me will help me to check their teachings against the word...for, even as I encourage others to be Bereans (Acts 17:10-11), I also follow my own advice.

Therefore you are preaching to the choir when you say this...

I agree--the Bereans studied the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true--I suggest you do likewise.

I also know that what Paul was saying was true...but I apply the Berean principle to modern teachers of the word.

 

[justbyfaith]

The False Teaching of Steven Furtick
https://godwords.org/the-false-teaching-of-steven-furtick/

Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk 6:24, But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Luk 6:25, Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26, Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

I think that if Steven Furtick were a false prophet, no one would be speaking evil of him. All would be speaking well of him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think that if Steven Furtick were a false prophet, no one would be speaking evil of him. All would be speaking well of him.

Did you check out his actual words and actual teaching as quoted? No need to defend anyone who presents false doctrines.

 

[justbyfaith]

Did you check out his actual words and actual teaching as quoted? No need to defend anyone who presents false doctrines.

I do believe that some who believe in modalism are members of the body...they are still in the beginning stages of being able to understand the Godhead as it applies to the Trinity.

And if a doctrine doesn't bring damnation to someone for believing in it...is it really false doctrine?

It may be off-base to a certain extent...but if someone can believe in it without forfeiting salvation...then all that is needed for the person believing in it is further instruction...so that they can have a better understanding of the truth and be not even 1 degree off course.

If someone is 1 degree off course on a trip to Hawaii, they will end up in the middle of the ocean if they go the full distance on that course of direction. However, it is easier to make a course correction if you are 1 degree off course than if you are say, 10 degrees off course and have already gone a long distance on that course. The distance to Hawaii will be less if you have been traveling 1 degree off course than if you have been traveling 10 degrees off course.

And modalism is something that I would say is one degree off course; whereas some people's understanding of the Trinity is closer to 10 degrees off course.

What people need to understand is that the Persons in the Trinity are distinct rather than separate...the latter understanding is Tritheism and is a dangerous heresy...yet there are people who believe in it and yet hide behind the label of "Trinitarian".

More on this here...

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/

 

[Dino246]

The False Teaching of Steven Furtick
https://godwords.org/the-false-teaching-of-steven-furtick/

Unfortunately, you have chosen a very poor example to illustrate Furtick's allegedly false teachings. The linked article does not cite a single reference of Furtick's material; the author simply claims that Furtick said certain things. The author also spends a lot of time criticizing the teachings of people whom Furtick allegedly endorses.

In short, the article is slanderous and not worth the time to read it.

 

[justbyfaith]

The fact that @Dino246 likes Furtick is surely an indictment on him though...

 

[Dino246]

The fact that @Dino246 likes Furtick is surely an indictment on him though...

More thoughtless slander.

 

[justbyfaith]

More thoughtless slander.

I have simply reacted to your incessant x'ing out of my biblical posts.

 

[Dino246]

I have simply reacted to your incessant x'ing out of my biblical posts.

My disagreement with your misinterpretations of Scripture has nothing to do with my comments on the article about Stephen Furtick, which you didn't even post.

 

[justbyfaith]

My disagreement with your misinterpretations of Scripture has nothing to do with my comments on the article about Stephen Furtick, which you didn't even post.

There have been no "misinterpretations" on my part. But your disagreements with my faithful interpretations are clearly based on your own misinterpretations.

 

[Blade]

To the OP.. each gen believed they were in the end times yet not one did Israel become a nation and is blooming. So yes I believe we are.

To some of you..gossip stops the sweet holy Spirit. ... this is where I leave. I know the good.. oddly not posted here. I know what they confess about Jesus coming in the flesh. I know 1st Cor 13 I know the fruits.. I know who Christ always looks at me.. I know how my Father sees me. See I listen for "Jesus came in the flesh born by the virgin Mary. Died on the cross for the worlds sin. Was buried rose the 3rd day. Is the only way to the Father". The word aka GOD makes it very clear about that. Then to know Jesus Christ takes is very personally when ever I talk about another believer.... to Him.. I AM doing it to Him. Mattes not what I think feel....its a truth.

Yes.. I think we are in the end times.. yet it can be another moment or another 30 years and still be inline with the word.. I can be wrong.. so I just look for Him every moment.. not promised tomorrow so.. I am will be always watching.. it will never be like a thief in the night. See Christ we know is no thief. He will come those not watching... He will come and take what is His.. they who ever is not watching does not believe... to them a thief came. My guess? lol. I just know Hes coming...when? No clue.. just going to watch like many others and do what He told me to.. the work He told me to.

Please speak words of life.. see the good first.. if you see fault error.. take it before Christ.. fight for them.. help them. Bind the enemy if you think they are being lied to. If it can happen to YOU it can happen to them. If you see your sin and repent.. treat them the same..

 

[Angela53510]

It is speaking here of those who have not yet gone on to be with the Lord through physical death. Those who are still alive on the earth when the rapture comes.



Right....the Latin word for "caught up" is the Latin "rapturo".

So, what do you think it means for the church to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?



The firmament is the first heaven.

And it does not say in 1 Thessalonians that those who are caught up will immediately come back to earth. It is believed with a certain biblical basis that there will be seven years in which the church will partake of the "marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9) while the people on the earth are going through "Great Tribulation".

Are you one who believes that the church will go through the Great Tribulation?

I would ask you whether you think of God as a wife-beater then.



I do not believe that the doctrine of the rapture is heresy. It is actually taught by some of the largest mainline Protestant denominations (including the one that I now attend, Calvary Chapel).

I'm Amillennial and a partial preterist. You did not in any way refute my post. I don't really care how Jerome translated a word into Latin. No rapture! Not only is it not mentioned enough to form a doctrine, but it does not appear at all, except through a third language 400 years after Christ. You didn't deal with the fact that apantesin does not mean "meet" but "meet and return." Compare it to Acts 28:15, where the people went out to "meet" Paul and return with him to Rome. Plus, it simply does not say heaven anywhere in that verse. We meet him in the air around us, and return with him, regardless if your extra biblical info about about the air is the first firmament or heaven. If I jump up in the air, I am certainly not in heaven. If someone jumps out of an airplane and parachute down 10,000 feet, they are not in heaven either. How ridiculous!

You have these ideas, but you have not properly exegeted them Bible, instead, you have read into the Bible what you want it to say, eisegesis, and fail to let the proper Greek meaning come out, exegesis, which is the proper way to read the Bible.

I never mentioned earlier that in this verse, 1 Thess 4:17, there is also no mention of a "secret" rapture. So even if we allowed for a rapture, (which I do not!) there is no mention of it being secret, anywhere. The translational issues in this verse are overwhelming in denying the entire dispensationalist end times scenario!

As far as this great tribulation, it already happened. It happened in 70 AD, when Titus laid seige to Jerusalem, and burned the temple with its genealogical records, to the ground. Those genealogies, nor the whole temple sacrifice were not needed anymore. Jesus ancestors, were the last genealogies needed! Jesus was speaking to the people of his time, about a soon coming event. Not to us 2000 years later. To be sure, some things were not fulfilled in the 1st century AD. Jesus Second Coming has not yet occurred! But he only comes back once! Not a rapture, nor anything else, but landing on the Mount of Olives and every eye shall see!

You have totally failed to argue against my Greek exegesis. You can believe what you want, of course. But that doesn't make it Scriptural! And personally, I don't care if every other Christian in the world was a dispensationalist. I will follow the truth written in the Bible, and not the imaginings of men like Darby & Scofield. Reformed and many Baptists don't generally believe in the rapture. My Baptist church the entire preaching team are Amillennial, I found out when we did a series in Revelation. Lutherans are not Dispies, nor the Roman Catholic nor Orthodox churches. Probably not Anglican (Episcopal), either. The mainline traditional churches laid out their doctrines centuries before this dispie nonsense was invented.

 

[Angela53510]

a few notes as I read.

1. The passage says, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. while I agree it is a meeting, and it the lord coming to us. I do not see where it states we will immediately return with him. It just states we will be with him forever.

2. As for the word rapture. or more specifically, to be "caught up" I also agree, this was a latin translation or whatever from the greek. But it still in my view means the same. We are caught up "snatched" or "Siezed" into the clouds. where this meeting takes place.

as for returning. I am always limited by the fact we do not just meet, and come back. SOme things have to happen to us. Namely the bema seat judgment. The reciving of our glorified bodies. and everything else.

I am also limited to the fact we see resurrected being in the throne room with Christ as he opens the seals. How can this be if they have not yet been resurrected yet?

I am not for or against pre-trib or post trib. I believe it is a mystery and we will not know until it happens. All I can do is look to the word as a whole. and not just one small passage, and see what I see concerning end times and when and where the ressurection fits in.

Hope your feeling OK sis. I know your going through alot..

Thanks for caring! Prayers are always coveted. Today God gave me great hope. I saw a hand physiotherapist and she made a device for my left hand, (which has subluxed all the tendons), and ulnar drift. It has been extremely painful to play flute on our worship team, although I do sing. I wore this device she made fitted to the hand, for 3.5 hours. When I went to practise, my hand didn't hurt! So, God is good. Plus, I don't have cancer. (Another story!)

Anyway, getting back to your questions.
1. We will always be with the Lord when he returns. And when he returns, there will be the Judgement! And judgement doesn't not happen in heaven, it happens on earth. Have you ever wondered why people would be taken to heaven, then they would be taken back to earth to stand before the Bema? It seems funny people would go to heaven before that point. Even in Jesus day they believed in paradise, where believers would wait till The Messiah, or Christ came.

It doesn't say "meet and return" in every English Bible I've read. So, I understand your concern. But, as I said up in this post you quoted, that apantesin does not mean just "meet." It means "meet and return." Bauer, BDAG, the best lexicon says it is meet and return. Apantesin is only found 3 times in the NT. Each time what happens is to meet and return. Like the Christians of Rome did, when they went out to meet the dignitary, Paul, and then returned with him to the city. Luke wrote Acts 28:15, who has the best and most difficult Greek in the New Testament, just ahead of Paul. Both men were excellent in their use of Greek - vocabulary, grammar and rhetoric. They used this low frequency word, so that Greek readers would understand that we won't just "meet" Jesus in the air, we will meet and return. And we will return to the earth for the Judgement. If Paul and Luke had used a different word for meet, then I would be in error. But since both of them used this word, they were both good enough writers in Greek to use this word, where the circumstances demanded "meet and return."

2. Yes we will be caught up in the air. But not the clouds. Jesus is coming in the clouds. But, we will not necessarily go up that high to meet him. It could be a foot, a 100 feet or a thousand. But low enough the air is still breathable, as no one will have glorified bodies yet. Nor is there a word about going to heaven. It simply is not there, in the text, or any other verse. Besides, apantesin tells us we "meet and return," so going to heaven would directly contradict that word.

As for us seeing Jesus opening the seals, remember what sort of genre Revelation is! It is apocalyptic, which means "revealed." John revealed it, he was in a vision. Revelation is not to be taken literally. It is symbolic. John faithfully recorded all the things he was shown. But he didn't have to understand it. People have combed through every verse of Revelation to make a detailed end times scenario. But that is not the purpose of the book. It was to reveal end times apocalyptically. And it does this well. We don't yet understand a lot of the symbols, but because John saw it as part of his vision, doesn't mean that we will be there, too. Although God will reveal the meaning, in the end. John certainly has not revealed people were even there, at this point, just lots of angels. So, will we see this? Time will tell!

I do agree the end times are a mystery. Anyone who thinks they have unraveled that mystery are deluding themselves. And yes, we need to know much more than just 1 Thess 4:17. I was exegeting that verse, to show that dispensationalist interpretations of the rapture do not work with the Greek. But yes, so much more to learn and know. I really don't think God wants us to understand the symbolism yet. But when he returns, that is when we will see him face to face to face, and we will all know!

 

[Hann57]

Again--a poor argument. There are ethical CEO's of companies and unethical--some who rob from their employees and customers and those who don't. A 'worker is worthy of his wages.' Even Paul who worked full time for the gospel said he continued to work [making tents] so that he wouldn't be a burden to the believers. He most certainly did not have a monthly salary to rely on.

"23 Are they servants of Christ? I know I sound like a madman, but I have served him far more! I have worked harder, been put in prison more often, been whipped times without number, and faced death again and again. 24 Five different times the Jewish leaders gave me thirty-nine lashes. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked. Once I spent a whole night and a day adrift at sea. 26 I have traveled on many long journeys. I have faced danger from rivers and from robbers. I have faced danger from my own people, the Jews, as well as from the Gentiles. I have faced danger in the cities, in the deserts, and on the seas. And I have faced danger from men who claim to be believers but are not.[a] 27 I have worked hard and long, enduring many sleepless nights. I have been hungry and thirsty and have often gone without food. I have shivered in the cold, without enough clothing to keep me warm."--2 Corinthians 11:23-27

The question is as always as I ask everyone. What gospel have you believed for salvation ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks for caring! Prayers are always coveted. Today God gave me great hope. I saw a hand physiotherapist and she made a device for my left hand, (which has subluxed all the tendons), and ulnar drift. It has been extremely painful to play flute on our worship team, although I do sing. I wore this device she made fitted to the hand, for 3.5 hours. When I went to practise, my hand didn't hurt! So, God is good. Plus, I don't have cancer. (Another story!)

Anyway, getting back to your questions.
1. We will always be with the Lord when he returns. And when he returns, there will be the Judgement! And judgement doesn't not happen in heaven, it happens on earth. Have you ever wondered why people would be taken to heaven, then they would be taken back to earth to stand before the Bema? It seems funny people would go to heaven before that point. Even in Jesus day they believed in paradise, where believers would wait till The Messiah, or Christ came.

It doesn't say "meet and return" in every English Bible I've read. So, I understand your concern. But, as I said up in this post you quoted, that apantesin does not mean just "meet." It means "meet and return." Bauer, BDAG, the best lexicon says it is meet and return. Apantesin is only found 3 times in the NT. Each time what happens is to meet and return. Like the Christians of Rome did, when they went out to meet the dignitary, Paul, and then returned with him to the city. Luke wrote Acts 28:15, who has the best and most difficult Greek in the New Testament, just ahead of Paul. Both men were excellent in their use of Greek - vocabulary, grammar and rhetoric. They used this low frequency word, so that Greek readers would understand that we won't just "meet" Jesus in the air, we will meet and return. And we will return to the earth for the Judgement. If Paul and Luke had used a different word for meet, then I would be in error. But since both of them used this word, they were both good enough writers in Greek to use this word, where the circumstances demanded "meet and return."

2. Yes we will be caught up in the air. But not the clouds. Jesus is coming in the clouds. But, we will not necessarily go up that high to meet him. It could be a foot, a 100 feet or a thousand. But low enough the air is still breathable, as no one will have glorified bodies yet. Nor is there a word about going to heaven. It simply is not there, in the text, or any other verse. Besides, apantesin tells us we "meet and return," so going to heaven would directly contradict that word.

As for us seeing Jesus opening the seals, remember what sort of genre Revelation is! It is apocalyptic, which means "revealed." John revealed it, he was in a vision. Revelation is not to be taken literally. It is symbolic. John faithfully recorded all the things he was shown. But he didn't have to understand it. People have combed through every verse of Revelation to make a detailed end times scenario. But that is not the purpose of the book. It was to reveal end times apocalyptically. And it does this well. We don't yet understand a lot of the symbols, but because John saw it as part of his vision, doesn't mean that we will be there, too. Although God will reveal the meaning, in the end. John certainly has not revealed people were even there, at this point, just lots of angels. So, will we see this? Time will tell!

I do agree the end times are a mystery. Anyone who thinks they have unraveled that mystery are deluding themselves. And yes, we need to know much more than just 1 Thess 4:17. I was exegeting that verse, to show that dispensationalist interpretations of the rapture do not work with the Greek. But yes, so much more to learn and know. I really don't think God wants us to understand the symbolism yet. But when he returns, that is when we will see him face to face to face, and we will all know!

Thats awesome about your hand and no Cancer! Praise God.

Reveleation is to NT what Daniel was to the OT. I do not believe in prophecy written as symbols to represent truths. I believe John wrote down what he saw, And those things will literally happen. Just like the 4 beasts of daniel literal appeared and walked on this earth and ruled over jerusalem as prophesied.

I can see what you say about the word meet also. But it still does nto make sense to me. When jesus returns and those with him. They are already in their bodies and already will be given commands. Something just tells me they will have to be prepaired for this mission. God is not just going to set them in place.. It is just far too many questions for me to consider a post trib rapture or “catching up”

But that is me.. Have a great thanksgiving sis (do you celebrate thanksgiving? I can not remember where you dwell. I have memory issues creeping up

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My disagreement with your misinterpretations of Scripture has nothing to do with my comments on the article about Stephen Furtick, which you didn't even post.

He is one of those if you believe his truth you are aligned with Gods truth, If not. You are a heretic and non believer.

I see he has not changed since he has gotten here. Its sad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can tell you that the Christian circle where I am, he is not respected as a true Gospel preacher.

But there are thousands in this area falling for this prosperity Gospel and Furtick is the only one prospering in reality!

Thats usually how it happens. There is a person here who is like that. He heads the world harvest church. The state has been trying to get to him for taxes. Because everyones knows he is for prophet. But separation of church and state prevents that. even many churches wish the state could stop in, because they know he is a fraud. If you do not put money in the basket they actually have men that will try to intimidate you) and I have seen pamphlets that if you give a certain amount of money, He guarantees a certain number of prayers will be answered.

These guys will have a special place in hell I believe. Sadly with our current laws. We can not do anything. But if we started to allow them to be taxed that would open a can of worms other smaller churches may not be able to handle,
’its sad