Misconceptions

Yes. Only the twelve were chosen for the foundations of the City. I think you go too far that we are opposing Christ by teaching there were more, though. Both Paul and Luke taught that there were, and certainly we agree that neither of them opposed Christ.

I would clarify regarding my own position that not everyone referring to themself as an "apostle" today actually is one, however. Maybe this is your concern?


Depends on what part of the world, but in Central and South America certainly. Probably also in Africa.

What is the importance of who the majority is, however?

"Undoubtedly, there were other apostles unnamed in scripture as well, but regardless all true apostles met the test of having witnessed the resurrected Lord and proved their office by the unique gifts of an apostle, including raising men from the dead, healing supernaturally, surviving deadly snake bites, etc.

Today, apostles no longer exist in the church, because there are no men remaining alive who can meet the test of seeing the resurrected Lord.

All we need is advice from Laura798, who loves to mislead people. That's a lot more fun than sticking to the dull and sober facts.

I believe you've seen. But can you verify? It's like Bigfoot or space aliens; everyone has belief and stories, no one has proof.

The importance is in the argument that that a lack of belief or faith is what makes the sign gifts being not seen.

The problem with this is the majority of Christians would have a belief in seeing sign miracles and wonders.

Whether the signs and wonders is still going on is an objective.. not subjective thing. In scripture it wasnt always dependent on the level of faith or lack of belief in Christians.

Ha, ha! What was that guy's name again--was it Marv Newland?

For Timothy and Silvanus, we have no record found in the Bible that they were eyewitnesses of Christ even after the resurrection, unlike Paul. It is much of consideration that young Timothy pastors a church

The importance is in the argument that that a lack of belief or faith is what makes the sign gifts being not seen.

Whether the signs and wonders is still going on is an objective.. not subjective thing.

I knew a woman in her 70s who walked with a cane for 10 years. Medically she was diagnosed with a spine issue that caused her to walk hunched over.

One day, a certain man who was an apostle, preached about forgiveness and the consequences of unforgiveness. After he finished the woman with her husband approached the man. She told him she had unforgiveness in her heart against a close family member and wanted to deal with it. By this time there were several people gathered around the man and the couple.

The man led the woman through the confession of her sin of unforgiveness. He then addressed the enemy who, by right because of her sin, had harassed the woman for many years. She was tearful as she thanked the Lord for forging her sin.

When he was finished he laid a hand on her back and said, “By your confession and by the grace of the Lord the weight of this sin is now off of you. What was crooked the Lord has made straight. You will walk upright now, the Lord has restored you.” From that moment on she never walked with a hunch again. All who were present began praising the Lord.

The original 12 were to be witnesses to the Lord’s ministry, death, resurrection and ascension. This was important because of the Jewish requirement for witnesses (to whom they immediately preached).

Yet, when Barnabas was chosen, with Saul, they did not meet this criteria and the Lord was already in heaven. Yet the Spirit chose them as He did Timothy, Silvanus, etc. Today, the Spirit also choses apostles and sends them out.

I see you changed your avatar, LoL.

We actually disagree on one thing however:


One thing to remember about this (though you don't have to agree with me), is that those whom He appears to in the end-times would in effect also be witnesses of the resurrected Lord as well, since they will be seeing Him alive from the dead. There are prophecies that He will appear to councils in person as He did with the twelve, and direct the affairs of the end-time church, and that they will therefore know just as the early church did just how alive from the dead He truly is.


Uncalled for. I don't think anyone is teaching anything here to titillate the ears. They are quoting scriptures to prove their case. No offense, but what's boring is read someone resort to false accusations and slander rather than offer scriptural support for their positions.

Speaking of which, you didn't answer my last post. Is that your only answer? I'd like to give you one more chance before I show you from the letter itself how you are mistaken?

Really? Kindly send us all a list of the GENUINE apostles and prophets which are in the world today. And if you are unable to do so, then have the grace to say that those spiritual gifts have ceased. Self-deception helps no one.

In the following verses it gives the order in which the risen christ was witnessed by others--it says he appeared to Peter first and then to the 12 and then later says, "then to ALL the apostles."

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Thanks 'big brother' for standing up for me!

Yes , I changed my avatar--However, I wish the sword was a little more imposing...

We we will all witness Christ at his coming and we won't need apostles anymore because they were eyewitnesses of Jesus's ministry and of his resurrection. Eyewitnesses presented their evidence--now the case is closed. As far as the church, my take is,

Scene 1:
1. Second Coming
2. Woopee! Here we go!--for some of us... and the rest?....
3. Boom Pow BANG--earth, stars GONE--and the unbelievers with them--for them it's lights ON one minute and LIGHTS OFF the next.
Scene 2: New Heavens and New Earth...and Eternity with HIM!

Anybody gives you any trouble, bring it to my attention. If there's any way I can defend you, I will.

And to think I just chose my site name on a whim, LoL.
Vindicator

Dear Brother,

Barnabas wasn't chosen to be an apostle, only to go with Paul on his missionary work--he was already an apostle. Timothy is never called an apostle--Paul calls him a 'brother' and 'co-worker' (Colossians 1:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Romans 16:21) Same with Silvanus (1 Peter 5:12)

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out"
--Acts 14:14

To be an apostle, a disciple must meet a certain set of criteria;

1. They must be commissioned by the Lord Himself to spread the gospel before His ascension
2. They should show evidence of their apostleship by the working of miracles
3. They must have been EYE WITNESSES to his miracles, ministry, and resurrection.

There is no one currently alive that meets this criteria.

Just kidding....lol

Barnabas was chosen by the Holy Spirit to be sent with Saul as an apostle. He was first a prophet or a teacher as was Saul.

"Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

During a time of fasting a praying, the Spirit instructed them to set apart Barnabas and Saul.

"As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

The Elders acknowledge the work of the Spirit, lay hands on them, and send them out. Then this is recorded:

"So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus."

Ultimately, they were sent out by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit chose them. And the definition of "apostle" is "sent one". Barnabas did not meet the criteria set by Peter and the disciples. (I'll come back to that)

Regarding Timothy and Silvanus.

In the introduction of the first letter to the Thessalonians this is written:

"Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

These are the authors of the letter.

It continues:

"We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers..."

Who is the "we"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"And you became followers of us and of the Lord..."

Who is the "us"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"..that our coming to you was not in vain."

Who is the "our"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel..."

Again, the "we" is Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.

"For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness."

This is a letter written by three men, Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. So it is written from the perspective of three men addressing the saints in Thessaloniki.

The next verse is this:

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

Who are the apostles of Christ? Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy

Regarding the standard set forth by Peter and the apostles. This is said:

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

This standard was necessary because of the legal traditions of the Jewish people. With the witness of 12 Jewish men a matter was considered irrefutable. And, in the Lord's timing at Pentecost, they first witnessed to the Jews. All 12 stood up with Peter as he delivered the message. By tradition, this was a sign that all 12 agreed with the one speaking. Peter then gave an account of Jesus' ministry, his death and resurrection, and ascension.

Do you see it now?

Just kidding....lol

Very good! More proof.

I have personally never believed there were only twelve. The whole theory sounds too Cessationist for me, for lack of a better word. Sounds like something concocted merely as a way to refute the claim that there are apostles in the modern era, but in the process it tramples the word of God to do it.


Absolutely! I have great respect for women of God. I occasionally confront them myself, but I far prefer coming to their defense whenever I can.


LoL. The one I gave you is still there. Can't miss that one, even if she doesn't have any bangs.


I like the picture you added. Nice touch, LoL.

Yeah, until we see some truly powerful men of God again, I don't know that it's worth arguing about much right now. And I do have a problem with many of those who presently call themselves "apostles" yet are not. I have a Hispanic pastor friend who got heavy into Guillermo Maldonado, and he calls himself an "apostle." In reality, he's just a Kingdom Now teacher, which means he basically takes Biblical prophecy and just chews it into a million pieces and then spits it out. I don't like to judge, and I don't limit God even in the present here and now, but I don't think the return of genuine apostles to the earth has arrived just yet. We've barely seen much of a return of the prophets, despite many making that claim as well.

So we'll see.

Anybody gives you any trouble, bring it to my attention. If there's any way I can defend you, I will.

And to think I just chose my site name on a whim, LoL.
Vindicator

This thread is regarding the doctrine of cessationism. It has been covered before, but I thought it was necessary to have a seperate thread for this.

There are common statements made regarding cessationism that I thought I'd like to address:

1- 'You are limiting/denying the power of the Holy Spirit.'

Generally, a cessationist still believes -- according to scripture---the Holy Spirit empowers, directs, guides, rebukes, encourages, is fully God, can be hurt and grieves, is personal, seals a believer, dwells in the midst of a local church in their various functions, and more.

They also generally believe-- according to scripture-- faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts that remain. Some also have partial cessationism with ministry gifts remaining, which altho I believe have also passed... I don't have much of an issue with if people are into these, since they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.


2- 'We have knowledge now, so the gifts can't have ceased.'

This one should be obvious, because the context of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the supernatural gift of knowledge. This is not general knowledge.. it's supernaturally empowered, special, exceptional. So we still have general knowledge now of course.

3- 'The gifts are not being readily shown now because of a lack of faith'

The fact is most churches actually are not cessationists and believe in following all the gifts. Cessationists are not the majority. So not enough faith is not linked to the gifts not being shown.

The other part of this--in scripture-- is when God was using the gifts through people, it wasn't always about the level of their faith. It was God working, objectively, through people with these gifts. Many demonstrations of power and signs to show His work through His people to accomplish particular purposes. When they operated in the gifts-- they just DID IT! Because it was God doing it!

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more..