What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

My previous post timed out while I was editing--this is the edited one.

Lucy, did you notice the semicolons? Those are three independent, though related statements. Why are they related? They are related because they are all the good things God will do at the end of the age.

1. He wipes all tears from their eyes. (figurative language--literally there will be nothing to cry about anymore)
2. There will be NO MORE death, sorrow, crying, or pain. NO MORE means just that--no more in all of God's Heavenly Kingdom
3. The former things are passed away

I am disturbed at how ETC'ers cling to this myth of eternal conscious torment--if you truly believe this, I would think you would be in a state of constant worry and fear for your friends and loved ones. This false doctrine is one of the reasons given by unbelievers for rejecting the Christian faith and rejecting Christians--any human that would follow a supposedly loving God who would do something so diabolical---must not be a very good person themselves.

Even God condemned the sacrifice of children to Baal by fire. Where do you see anywhere that God used torture as form of punishment? The worst punishment we have on this earth is death. Anyone who tortures a human being or even an animal is clearly seen as evil. Note inRevelation there are two different fires in Revelation--the Lake of Fire which the angels says four times is the second death; then there is the literal fire that God will send on the earth 'for those who worship the beast'--referenced in many of the OT prophecies-- (worship is present tense, not past)

"Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame."--Isaiah 13:8

PS Nearly all of us Annihilationist were raised in churches that taught this myth. We have studied the word on our own--for me it took just a few minutes to see what had been right in front of my eyes the whole time.
Again--there are a multitude of LITERAL verses that say plainly the punishment for sin is death/destruction in contrast to a handful of figurative ones--note that the same figurative ones are posted over and over again "tormented day and night...forever and ever"--being their favorite pet. Theologically it can't be true since scripture says Christ DIED in our place. If Death isn't' the punishment for sin then that would mean you would have to believe Christ is or will be in eternal conscious torment for all eternity.

Why is this so hard to understand? For a start, God is outside of time, so "years" means nothing. Second, death is not the end of existence. We are born dead in trespass and sin, but we still exist. Death is separation from God. Adam died the moment he disobeyed. He hid from God, another symptom of the reality that he died. Heaven and hell are not physical locations. They are spiritual states. If you are not in heaven now, you won't be if you die as you are. And if you are in heaven when you die, you will continue on in heaven. We are in Christ Jesus now, if we are born again. Where is He? Ruling and reigning in heaven.

Earth is the battlefield, the valley of decision. What we decide here sets our eternal destiny. People get to choose their destiny. They need to know that heaven and hell are real. Otherwise, their is little motivation to turn to God. Some accept Christ for more noble reasons, but they are the minority. Most are saved in order to avoid God's judgement. And everyone who is saved has seen that they are sinners in need of a saviour. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. For many, annihilation is no big deal. Ask the atheist, who believes that there is no existence after death.

People are inherently rebellious and disobedient to God. How many people have you led to the Lord by telling them it's ok, there is no hell and you can live as you please without consequences? If annihilation is God's will, He could have let Adam and Eve die and started again with new beings that may have obeyed instead of listening to Satan. Annihilation diminishes the true wonder of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

I read the testimony of a pastor who decided to stop preaching hell. For four years, not one person was saved in his church. He returned to preaching hell people started getting saved again. Yes, Jesus died for all mankind. But not everyone wants to be saved.

John 3:
"16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

Jesus did not come to condemn the world. He did not need to, because unbelievers are already condemned. Jesus came to save, but not everyone wants to be saved. Sinners who complain about God's judgement are like criminals who refuse to accept their guilt. There's a saying that there are no guilty people in prison. That's because they rationalise their crimes. And some of the worst of sinners will look you in the eye and say that they are good people.

This is a lie of Satan. Would a good parent want you to obey out of love or out of fear? And you quoted John 3:16 "For God SO LOVED the world." We are drawn by the amazing gift of His love, of being able to spend eternity with Him in His unimaginable glorious paradise."

People are always repelled by EVIL and always drawn towards LOVE. Hell is the DOCTRINE OF DEMONS spoken of in Scripture--it makes God out to be equal to Satan himself.

Gideon,

Please see our previous posts on the origins of ETC --it is a pagan myth--a lie that infiltrated the church many centuries ago and as they say "If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes truth." Even in the face of voluminous of LITERAL verses that say the punishment for sin is DEATH. Only EVIL people use FEAR to get people to do what they want them to do--good people will always use LOVE. God is far more above us, as the bible says "God is LOVE."

Condemned means to judge or sentence. It has nothing to do with eternal torment. In verse 16 He already said what that condemnation will be; the condemnation unbelievers will receive is that they will perish and not have eternal life. That's sola scriptura.

Notice the clear lack of anything to do with eternal torment in the verses you provided, but the clear expectation of utter destruction and sure death of the unbeliever. I know you'll find a way to disagree, but my job is to make sure you are exposed to the truth atleast one time. Now it's between you and God.

Condemn
G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

Perish
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

The thing about it is... that the verb in verse 29 is in the "Subjunctive mood"... "so that no flesh might glory/boast [V-ASM-3S] in His presence"

[see here] -- https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/1-29.htm

... so it's not saying "so that no flesh WILL..." (which is what you're suggesting it's saying).


The text is not conveying this though, as shown above.

Of course that's your goal, to have it say this so you can maintain your incorrect thoughts about the Greek word for "to bring to nought" (kjv), G2673, which in other verses is the English word "destroyed / destroy" (2Th2:8b [re: man of sin], 1Cor15:24,26 [re: death], and Heb2:14 [re: satan]), but means "rendered inoperative [annulled, to make idle (inactive)]" ... (NOT "annihilated" or "put as extinct / obliterated into nothingness" or the like. )

^ In view of this ^ , I maintain what I put in my Post #1234 (page 62):

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4688907






[I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint... and Rev20:10 retains its actual meaning too ]

Hey Gideon,

EDIT: I see others have already replied to you. So don't feel compelled to reply to this post. I don't want to come across as ganging up on you, but I'm sure there are others who hold similar feelings and view as you do on this topic. So I'm going to still post this for anyone to read and respond to.

Sorry for the length...

----

True, but why is this true? Mankind wasn't created from the ground as rebellious and disobedient. That's not man's natural state but is a corruption brought on by the first man (since we all were seeds in him). Paul explains that this corruption is due to death brought on by Adam, which leads all to sin (Romans 5:12-).

Man is mortal (i.e. the curse to eventually cease to exist). Death is not natural. satan is called "the murderer from the beginning."

This is a most logical question if the initial premise is "all are naturally, inherently eternal beings regardless of their actions and can never cease to be." But such is a false premise because of what Adam and Eve did. This is why Laura keeps saying "this is a lie from satan" because he's the first one who said "death isn't REALLY death", deceiving Eve and Adam to commit sin dooming us all to death.

Meanwhile, God said, "SURELY you will die." and then after they sinned He said, "You are DUST and so to DUST you will return." Return means "to go back to a place one once was".

So it's as if we're holding onto what satan said as more truth and rejecting what God said as more false, as if satan is the truth-teller and The Almighty is the liar.

[...maybe this should be another thread: "Which one was telling the truth about death - God or satan?" We know what the answer should be, but because Adam didn't instantly collapse into dust many believe death means something else.]

He just got finished giving dominion of the earth to Adam, and His Word doesn't return to Him void but must accomplish what He set it/Him out to do - Isaiah 55:11 (the Son is always obedient to the Father).

His will is that all should have life and more abundantly, but THROUGH Messiah. Such abundant life (immortality) doesn't happen outside of relationship with God THROUGH Messiah. The Almighty didn't establish humanity as eternal first, He simply created them first and then made eternity (tree of life) a reward for obedience ("do not eat from the other tree or you will die").

After they sinned, recall that He said, "let's block them from the tree of life LEST they take from it and live forever, now having known good and evil." (Gen 3:22).

He intentionally prevented sinful people from becoming eternal. So sinful people (i.e. those unfortunate to be cast into the lake of fire) aren't eternal.

It's because the two doctrines: hell and immortal soul, go hand in hand. One must get rid of both at the same time else pastors will run into the same problem that the Catholic Church did when they first introduced "the inherently immortal soul". It's sound reasoning for a corrupt person to say, "if one never really ceases to be, then there are no real consequences".

What you'll always find littered throughout the scriptures paired together - as "thesis" and "antithesis" - is life pit against death. In Genesis: tree of life and tree of death...the instructions given to the children of Israel: "I set before you life and death so choose life".... the Messiah speaks to the people: "come to me to have life" ....Paul explaining the gospel: "Christ suffered the pain of death so that we may have life"... in the last book: "the last enemy to be destroyed is death."

We have been taught that death is a natural part of life akin to a doorway to pass onto the eternal world of the spirit (where our actions in our life will determine where we spend our eternity). Art, literature, movies, religions, all promoting the afterlife as a consequence of death. But the truth reveal in scripture is, death is the condemnation to return to dust and cease to be - nothingness; a fading memory - because we came from the dust and not from heaven.

No one was supposed to die...ever...but because of satan's lie and because of sin mankind has already been condemned. But HalleluYah, the Messiah was sent because...

Only in The Light can one exist forever.

In darkness nothing is eternal.

^ Where John 10:10 says, "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. ", I believe this refers to: while we (as believers) still exist in these mortal bodies (not speaking specifically of "immortality," as you put it ^ [Post #1309]).

DW,

You used these definitions to try to disprove that "to bring to nought" does not mean destroy; unfortunately you have proved in fact that they do.

inoperative: Not working or functioning.No longer in force; countermanded. Not operative; not active; producing no effects

If a human is no longer operative, then common sense says they would lose ALL human function, such as being conscious and being in pain.

annul: To bring to an end the effect or existence of; cancel out. To reduce to nothing; to obliterate.

-----cancel: To cross out with lines or other markings. synonym: erase.

-----obliterate: To remove or destroy completely so as to leave no trace.

Reading this twisting of words and their definitions is like a chapter out of 1984.

^ (yawn )

@Laura798 ,

Another verse using this word (G2673) is often misunderstood to mean that "OUR [physical] BODIES" are destroyed... but this Rom6:6 verse (and surrounding CONTEXT ['the BODY of this death' Rom 7:24]) is NOT talking about "OUR bodies," but rather "the body of the sin"... (<--THAT THING!) And the effect is: "for our no longer serving the sin"

--Romans 6:6ylt (for example) - "this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of the sin may be made useless [G2673], for our no longer serving the sin"



(yet, it's possible to still commit a sin or sins... this is referring to our present existence while still on this earth)

DW,

I beg to differ, based on the following Scriptures--yes we have Him with us in this life--and He gives peace, courage strength,wisdom, and most importantly a personal relationship with Him, etc. But I don't believe that is the abundant life he is pointing to. I believe it is the eternal.

"…24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked. I spent a night and a day in the open sea. 26In my frequent journeys, I have been in danger from rivers and from bandits, in danger from my countrymen and from the Gentiles, in danger in the city and in the country, in danger on the sea and among false brothers,…"--2nd Corinthians 11:26

"The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10 and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother."--Matthew 14:9-11 (he was young man between 30-33 years of age. A beheading as a payment for licentious dance)

"They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated"—Hebrews 11:37

"We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed."--2 Corinthians 4:8


"Abundant life is eternal life, a life that begins the moment we come to Christ and receive Him as Savior, and goes on throughout all eternity. The biblical definition of life — specifically eternal life — is provided by Jesus Himself: “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (John 17:3). This definition makes no mention of length of days, health, prosperity, family, or occupation. As a matter of fact, the only thing it does mention is knowledge of God, which is the key to a truly abundant life. "https://www.gotquestions.org/abundant-life.html

DW,

I've read this three times, in an attempt to understand what it is your saying, but I cannot--your posts are on the whole confusing. You appear to be an intelligent person, however, if you want to make a point and want readers to comprehend it, please then do consider writing in a more straightforward manner--this is very convoluted.

It sounds like you are saying sin is destroyed--however that makes no sense "body of sin" is the person who commits the sin-the sentence for sin is death--the person who does not confess Christ will be destroyed. Natural death is NEVER a punishment for sin. It is the second death at the Judgment.

"I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready."--1 Corinthians 3:2

There is some conjecture that here Paul is making reference to an ancient form of punishment of trying the corpse of the murder victim tightly to the condemned criminal.

So yes....THAT SINFUL OTHER BODY is to be [annulled, to make idle (inactive)]

I found this video to be the most succinct, yet thorough explanation on why Annihilation is the punishment for sin and Eternal Conscious Torment is not. Just like many of us now on the 'A' side he too had changed his mind after studying the matter for himself. (the narrator has a slight speech impediment, but I found him easy to understand.) He really wraps this up in a neat and tidy bow in under 10 minutes.

Yes, this is basically how I also understand it as well.

Dearest Gideon, it is not hard to understand at all. Why must you conflate the rejection of something with not understanding it? And saying the atheist accepts the idea of non-existence as if that in itself makes it a reason for believers to reject it is terribly misguided, to put it mildly. Oh, yes, the non-believer will say they do not believe in God or spiritual things, but want to go to heaven, too, and/or say they will be partying in hell with the cool people, while we will be in heaven with Hitler (if he repented). Nobody in their right mind wants to die, or stop existing. Expecting the enemies of God to be logical and rational when it comes to the things of God is a big mistake. I spoke with non-believers of many stripes over a period of eight years before joining here, so I very well acquainted with how and what they think. Saying the atheist gets what they want is not a legitimate reason to reject what the Bible states over and over and over again in a multiplicity of ways from beginning to end.

Rom. 6:6; I Cor. 1:28; I Cor. 2:6;I Cor. 6:13; I Cor. 13:8; I Cor. 13:10

The last enemy that shall be destroyed G2673 is death. I Cor. 15:26

II Cor. 3:13-14; Gal. 5:11; Eph. 2:15; II Thes 2:8; II Ti 1:10; Heb 2:14

καταργέω katargéō, kat-arg-eh'-o; from G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless),
literally or figuratively:—abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no
(none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

Biblical usages clearly show that both G2596 and G2573 mean to cease, to pass
away, be done away, to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish.

You speak of God being outside of time, but what of those suffering? Are you trying to say they and their suffering will likewise be out of time, and if not, why say it at all? Why is it so easy for people to believe that when an animal dies, that is the end of their existence, but when a person dies the second death, they must remain alive, and are said to be immortal by many who claim to take the Bible literally, against what the revealed written Word of God specifically and explicitly articulates, when as you yourself acknowledge, there are different meanings for life and death? Being born spiritually dead to God and being physically alive on Earth is different than what is meant by the death of passing out of this world, and I believe so too is the second death different from the first in that nothing remains and there is no coming back from it. Their punishment is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.

In fact, one of the things I find interesting in Scripture is how those not in Christ are always referred to as "dead." Dead itself takes on multiple meanings in light of Jesus saying, for instance, "Let the dead bury the dead." Obviously one type of dead, the one previous to the first death, is quite different from the state of the dead following the first death. Body and spirit unite to create soul. These are separated at death. This first state of death is what we are born into as enemies to God (what people call spiritually dead) until we become sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit of God, Who is given as a pledge of our inheritance (life in Christ).

Following the first death, the spiritually dead are said to know nothing, and though believers are said by Jesus to never die, we do experience the first death in passing out of this life, and both experience the dissolution of their bodily elements, though those who are saved are asleep in Christ, which some people deny, and claim that after death they are fully awake and aware despite a number of Scriptures that state the contrary. The thing is, both life and death have multiple meanings.

God has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel. I have witnessed a professed believer here saying that Satan gives the unbeliever eternal life. Where or how they come up with anything like that is beyond me, because there is absolutely nothing in Scripture to even suggest such a thing.

We are made of the same elements and have the same breath of life as animals. Some postulate that God's breath alone gives humans eternal life, but this again contradicts what is explicitly stated in Scripture, for God alone is immortal. The physical comes first and then the spiritual, and we must be born again to attain to life ever after. Those who by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ as a propitiatory sacrifice for their sin put on immorality, not non-believers, who are not innately immortal, again a belief that gets repeated ad infinitum and which flies in the face of what Scripture explicitly states. They repeat the lie of Stan at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation: You will not surely die.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 For the fates of both men and beasts are the same:
As one dies, so dies the other--they all have the same breath.

Why does God's immortality necessitate an infinite punishment? No causal link exists, either in Scripture or basic logic. In actuality, God retains the power to forgive whenever He chooses, because He is sovereign. It doesn't make sense that God would rather compel eternal torture than sanctification of the sinner, since He has the power to do either, especially given God's stated desire for his followers to bless their own enemies and do good to them.

Plus, God's Self-existent eternality is but one of His immutable qualities or characteristics. People obviously think nothing of selecting/assuming just His eternal nature to be transferred along with the breath (as if He is breathing air!), but He is also omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, and we obviously do not possess those qualities either. Some of what you say are common assumptions which need to be examined by those who hold to them and blindly refuse to see what is right in front of their faces when God's Word says the wicked will perish, be destroyed to the uttermost, and not be remembered in the new earth, but instead we get called minions of the devil because we believe what is stated: The dead have had their names blotted out of the book of life.

Heaven is not a place? Really? Heaven is God's abode. Jesus said He came from above, meaning heaven, and went to prepare a place for us there. It is not simply a state of mind as you intimate. That is a new age belief I am surprised to learn you hold to. I have spent a long time composing and typing this post, and needed to cut things out for character restrictions, because there is so much more to be said and shared on the matter. Perhaps another time. Grace and peace to you, my brother in Christ.

I didn't say that.

I said "that [/so that] the body of the sin" might be "rendered inoperative [/made idle (inactive); G2673]".

That's what the verse states.

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/6-6.htm - Romans 6:6

No it isn't.

This verse is not conveying such a thing.

^ edit to clarify this part:


No it isn't. (regarding the part I bolded and underlined ^ )




[Rom6:6]