What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[cv5]

please accept history, please don't accept the lies and deceptions of the past. Be honest

The concept of a soul within us that cannot die first became a ‘Christian’ doctrine at the end of the second century AD.

Hell had been taught in Greek philosophy long before the time of Jesus, with Plato (427-347 BC) as the important leader in this thinking.

The teaching of an everlasting place of punishment for the wicked is the natural consequence of a belief in an immortal soul. By the year AD 187, it was understood that life, once we have it, is compulsory; there is no end to it, either now or in a world to come. We have no choice as to its continuance, even if we were to commit suicide to end it.

At the end of the 2nd century Christianity had begun to blend Greek philosophy —human speculative reasoning, with the teachings of God’s Word. Such words and phrases as ‘continuance of being’, ‘perpetual existence’, ‘incapable of dissolution’ and ‘incorruptible’ began to appear in so-called Christian writings. These had come straight from Plato, the Greek philosopher, all those years before Jesus. Other phrases used were ‘the soul to remain by itself immortal’, and ‘an immortal nature’. It was taught that this is how God made us.

But this idea derives from philosophy, not divine inspiration. There are no such words in the Bible. It was Athenagorus, a Christian, but whose teachings, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, were strongly tinged with Platonism, who had introduced the teaching of an immortal soul into Christianity. In this way, he paved the way for the logical introduction of eternal torment for immortal, but sinful, souls. This was a hundred years and more after the time of the apostles, and came straight from popular philosophy. The apostles had consistently taught that death is a sleep, to be followed by resurrection. The early church leaders – Clement, Ignatius, Hermas, Polycarp, and others who also believed that death is a sleep, taught that the wicked are destroyed forever by fire – their punishment was to be annihilation. These leaders did not teach of an immortal soul to be tortured by fire in hell for eternity.
About AD 240 Tertullian of Carthage took up the teaching of an immortal soul. It was he who added the further, but logical dimension. He taught the endless torment of the immortal soul of the wicked was parallel to the eternal blessedness of the saved, with no sleep of death after this life.
This came at a time when many Christians were being burned for their faith and it was natural for them to accept that their persecutors would at death be consigned to an ever-burning hell for the persecution they had inflicted on others while they went straight to eternal bliss.

From the third century the darkness of the infiltration of man-made beliefs into Christianity deepened until the Dark Ages had smothered almost all the light of God’s Word. At the beginning of this time, the first attempts were made to create a systematic set of beliefs. It is not surprising that an ever-burning hell and the immortality of the soul were prominently included.
It is at this time that such beliefs, held by most Christians today, had their origin. An ever-burning hell has remained a commonly taught doctrine of the Christian religion to this day. It was not based on the Bible but on philosophy. Bible verses were later sought to uphold the ancient philosophies of the Greeks, and added to the teaching.

The demons (who preceded you), who have a perfect understanding of eschatology and who are entirely orthodox in their theology disagree.....

Furthermore...there is absolutely NOTHING in these passages that carry with them ANY CONNOTATION WHATSOEVER of TERMINATION, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, SLEEP or ANNIHILATION.

Matt 8:29
"What do You want with us Son of God?" they shouted. "Have You come here to torture (G928) us before the appointed time?"

G928: basanizó: to torture https://biblehub.com/greek/928.htm
Original Word: βασανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: basanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bas-an-id'-zo)
Definition: to torture
Usage: I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves.

Matt 23:33
Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How shall you escape from the sentence (G2920) of Gehenna?
(these scribes and Pharisees are sons of their father the devil....and will be sentenced to the same place and same eternal torture)

G2920: krisis: a decision, judgment https://biblehub.com/greek/2920.htm
Original Word: κρίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: krisis
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-sis)
Definition: a decision, judgment
Usage: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.

Matt 25:41 (mortal men will suffer the very same torture as the demons of Gadera)
Then also He will say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matt 25:46 (Those being cursed of v. 41. Note the INTENTIONAL contrast between the two groups)
And these will go away into eternal (G166) punishment (G2851); but the righteous into eternal life."

G166: aiónios: agelong, eternal https://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

G2851: kolasis: correction https://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Definition: correction
Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

Luke 12:4-5 (self-explanatory. Unless you are afflicted with Spiritual blindness)
I tell you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who has authority, after the killing, to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear Him.

Nothing to FEAR after termination and unconsciousness. Right? Nowhere to go "after the killing" when you have been annihilated? Right?

WRONG. Because there is no annihilation or unconscious termination noted here. Wrong as far as Jesus' Word plainly declares anyways.

 

[Magenta]

Nope. Sounds like twn kings and ten kingdoms spanning a region of 7 mountains which
are 7 areas of land where these kingdoms exist. That's not a man. That's millions of men.

Those who claim to take the Bible literally must disagree with you.

 

[cv5]

ewq1938......I'm trying to help you out here buddy.

You can see that my posts are Biblically bulletproof, and have yet to suffer even the slightest scratch from the attacks of the heretics. Given the overwhelming weight of biblical evidence I would run not walk away from Annihilationism.

 

[Laura798]

TheDivineWatermark is arguing in favor of eternal torment so I fail to see how that is either scriptural or in line with God's heart and nature. Just thought I would point that out.

In Arpon's defense; I greeted him on the New forum and English is his second language--I'm also sure he has not seen all of DW's posts--some of us--alas not me--have begun to decipher his hieroglyphics, however I do know at least where he stands.


I'm sorry to say it--God may send an angel to smack my hand with a ruler--but here it goes...

I'm fairly certain even an English Major would avert their gaze from DW's remarks.

 

[ewq1938]

You can see that my posts are Biblically bulletproof

That's all in your imagination. Even that ridicolous analogy of being "bulletrproof" is obvious over exaggeration which reaks of pride. The truth is you get almost everything on this subject wrong. It's actually that I and some others are trying to help YOU because you are so off track.

 

[Laura798]

ewq1938......I'm trying to help you out here buddy.

You can see that my posts are Biblically bulletproof, and have yet to suffer even the slightest scratch from the attacks of the heretics. Given the overwhelming weight of biblical evidence I would run not walk away from Annihilationism.

Hmm?

An angel just delivered this photo to me--special delivery.

Ps Three verses repeated over and over again aren't actually overwhelming. Maybe that was a typo? Under instead of over? Just sayin...

 

[cv5]

That's all in your imagination. Even that ridicolous analogy of being "bulletrproof" is obvious over exaggeration which reaks of pride. The truth is you get almost everything on this subject wrong. It's actually that I and some others are trying to help YOU because you are so off track.

I don't see how vain humanistic philosophy of the sort that Paul describes can be useful in defining correct Biblical doctrine. Quite frankly I'm still waiting for a reply to my last post that has any weight of Biblical evidence to the contrary. Bad feelings, ill will, unintelligible blubbering, shrieks of denial and gnashing of teeth don't count.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't see how vain humanistic philosophy of the sort that Paul describes can be useful in defining correct Biblical doctrine. Quite frankly I'm still waiting for a reply to my last post that has any weight of Biblical evidence to the contrary. Bad feelings, ill will, unintelligible blubbering, shrieks of denial and gnashing of teeth don't count.

Complains about "unintelligible blubbering" but posts unintelligible blubbering anyways.

 

[Laura798]

The demons (who preceded you), who have a perfect understanding of eschatology and who are entirely orthodox in their theology disagree.....

Furthermore...there is absolutely NOTHING in these passages that carry with them ANY CONNOTATION WHATSOEVER of TERMINATION, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, SLEEP or ANNIHILATION.

Matt 8:29
"What do You want with us Son of God?" they shouted. "Have You come here to torture (G928) us before the appointed time?"

G928: basanizó: to torture https://biblehub.com/greek/928.htm
Original Word: βασανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: basanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bas-an-id'-zo)
Definition: to torture
Usage: I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves.

Matt 23:33
Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How shall you escape from the sentence (G2920) of Gehenna?
(these scribes and Pharisees are sons of their father the devil....and will be sentenced to the same place and same eternal torture)

G2920: krisis: a decision, judgment https://biblehub.com/greek/2920.htm
Original Word: κρίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: krisis
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-sis)
Definition: a decision, judgment
Usage: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.

Matt 25:41 (mortal men will suffer the very same torture as the demons of Gadera)
Then also He will say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matt 25:46 (Those being cursed of v. 41. Note the INTENTIONAL contrast between the two groups)
And these will go away into eternal (G166) punishment (G2851); but the righteous into eternal life."

G166: aiónios: agelong, eternal https://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

G2851: kolasis: correction https://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Definition: correction
Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

Luke 12:4-5 (self-explanatory. Unless you are afflicted with Spiritual blindness)
I tell you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who has authority, after the killing, to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear Him.

Nothing to FEAR after termination and unconsciousness. Right? Nowhere to go "after the killing" when you have been annihilated? Right?

WRONG. Because there is no annihilation or unconscious termination noted here. Wrong as far as Jesus' Word plainly declares anyways.

CV5 Said: "The demons (who preceded you), who have a perfect understanding of eschatology and who are entirely orthodox in their theology disagree....."



I say we take a vote. No one is allowed to be inebriated or high before posting.

 

[cv5]

In Arpon's defense; I greeted him on the New forum and English is his second language--I'm also sure he has not seen all of DW's posts--some of us--alas not me--have begun to decipher his hieroglyphics, however I do know at least where he stands.


I'm sorry to say it--God may send an angel to smack my hand with a ruler--but here it goes...

I'm fairly certain even an English Major would avert their gaze from DW's remarks.

I'm not an English major and I gaze at TDW's remarks. Often. In fact as often as possible. With alacrity. With the keenest of interest. I carefully scrutinize his posts and ensure that eventually I read all the Scriptural references too. And then I bookmark TDW's post often. Very often. In fact almost all of them. The finest scholar on Christian chat IMO.

Even though you admit that you feel that you cannot comprehend his posts, and they are far beyond your pay grade......keep at it. Focus. God willing you're going to pick up on it eventually.

 

[ewq1938]

Even though you admit that you feel that you cannot comprehend his posts, and they are far beyond your pay grade......keep at it. Focus. God willing you're going to pick up on it eventually.

ad hominem fallacy

Marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made. A personal attack.

 

[Laura798]

I'm not an English major and I gaze at TDW's remarks. Often. In fact as often as possible. With alacrity. With the keenest of interest. I carefully scrutinize his posts and ensure that eventually I read all the Scriptural references too. And then I bookmark TDW's post often. Very often. In fact almost all of them. The finest scholar on Christian chat IMO.

Even though you admit that you feel that you cannot comprehend his posts, and they are far beyond your pay grade......keep at it. Focus. God willing you're going to pick up on it eventually.

To be clear--it is the confusion of it and I am not the only person to mention this.

So often cutting and pasting from a concordance; 4 digit numbers interspersed throughout; underlining ; multiple large and small texts combinations. Very few straightforward sentences or bible verses. Imagine looking for a diamond tossed among socks, fishing gear, the glue gun and grandma's cornbread recipe--it's just too much trouble to sort thru it all....

 

[TMS]

The demons (who preceded you), who have a perfect understanding of eschatology and who are entirely orthodox in their theology disagree.....

Furthermore...there is absolutely NOTHING in these passages that carry with them ANY CONNOTATION WHATSOEVER of TERMINATION, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, SLEEP or ANNIHILATION.

Matt 8:29
"What do You want with us Son of God?" they shouted. "Have You come here to torture (G928) us before the appointed time?"

G928: basanizó: to torture https://biblehub.com/greek/928.htm
Original Word: βασανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: basanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bas-an-id'-zo)
Definition: to torture
Usage: I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves.

I didn't say there wonldn't be punishment. ... For a time torture may be the punishment they receive.

The mistake is that you are giving people eternal life when only God can give eternal life and God would not keep people alive just to torture them.

 

[ewq1938]

The demons (who preceded you), who have a perfect understanding of eschatology and who are entirely orthodox in their theology disagree.....

So you get your doctrine from demons who "have a perfect understanding of eschatology and who are entirely orthodox in their theology".? Why does that not surprise me in the least?

Maybe STOP listening to teachings of demons and start listening to what God has to say? Try that for a change.

 

[cv5]

To be clear--it is the confusion of it and I am not the only person to mention this.

So often cutting and pasting from a concordance; 4 digit numbers interspersed throughout; underlining ; multiple large and small texts combinations. Very few straightforward sentences or bible verses. Imagine looking for a diamond tossed among socks, fishing gear, the glue gun and grandma's cornbread recipe--it's just too much trouble to sort thru it all....

Say what? I find TDWs posts to be ineffably sublime. Every one of them a prodigious scholarly tour de force. Positively singing wisdom and ringing truth redoundingly in my ears.

So you're saying that they make your head hurt? Maybe you can start with the easy parts first and move on from there....

 

[cv5]

So you get your doctrine from demons who "have a perfect understanding of eschatology and who are entirely orthodox in their theology".? Why does that not surprise me in the least?

Maybe STOP listening to teachings of demons and start listening to what God has to say? Try that for a change.

What I'm saying is that they have more understanding than you do......

What's more, demons were blurting out the truth about the Son of God time and time again if you're paying attention. They were blurting out the truth about the apostles too. They perceived things that men did not.

But yeah demons know perfectly about the end times. You don't.
They understand exactly what Gehenna fire is. You don't.
They understand that they are fated to eternal punishment. You don't.
They understand the sovereignty and judgment of God. You don't.

 

[ewq1938]

What I'm saying is that they have more understanding than you do......

Well you are wrong on that and are wrong to get your doctrine from Demons.

 

[cv5]

To be clear--it is the confusion of it and I am not the only person to mention this.

So often cutting and pasting from a concordance; 4 digit numbers interspersed throughout; underlining ; multiple large and small texts combinations. Very few straightforward sentences or bible verses. Imagine looking for a diamond tossed among socks, fishing gear, the glue gun and grandma's cornbread recipe--it's just too much trouble to sort thru it all....

4 digit numbers. Ouch. Annihilationists have a lot of trouble with those. Avoid if possible.

 

[cv5]

Well you are wrong on that and are wrong to get your doctrine from Demons.

I get my doctrine from the Bible buddy. Demons just happen to be there once in a while. And the lessons learned are those for our edification if indeed you're paying attention.

 

[ewq1938]

I get my doctrine from the Bible buddy. Demons just happen to be there once in a while.

I got it the first time. You get your doctrine from Demons. Doesn't surprise me. That's likely how Rome got their doctrine of eternal torture as well. Do you also listen and agree with what Satan teaches?