2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

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cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#61
SomeDisciple said:
Do you think Felix would have detained Paul, or Festus and Agrippa would have wasted their time on a guy being accused of preaching "depature"? Paul emphatically denies being guilty of what he is being accused of by the jews because they are accusing him of REBELLION, just like they did Jesus.
Why does Paul and the others deny what the Jews say? Because coming to Jesus would not be described as REBELLION against Moses. How could it be REBELLION when Moses points to Jesus, and the authority comes from him.
Think about it, your post is saying you agree with the Jews charges against Paul- that he was preaching "apostasian".... which Paul denies. Is that really the position you want to take?
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Paul was preaching the SPIRITUALLY TRUTHFUL GENUINE GOD-GIVEN gospel message to the Jews, teaching them DEPARTURE from Mosaic Old Covenant Judaism.

That IS NOT REBELLION.... it is OBEDIENCE to the command of God. That is to say that the term "apostasian" here INFERS OBEDIENCE.....not rebellion.

The twisted mind thinks the opposite of Spiritual truth.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#62
cv5 said:
"In the first seven English translations of the Bible (Wycliffe Bible 1384, Tyndale Bible 1526, Coverdale Bible 1535, Cranmer Bible 1539, Breeches Bible 1576, Beza Bible 1583, Geneva Bible 1608) the Greek word "apostasia" was correctly translated in context as "departure"."
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Yes.

That is what my pastor 45 years ago pointed out in his sermon (though he didn't list out which versions, as you have here), and explained that this was the meaning of our verse under discussion (and he was an excellent pastor who was actually very well-studied). It made perfect sense to me.

It was only years later, when I was in my 20s that I began hearing this passage taught the other way ('a falling away FROM THE FAITH'), which led me to "study this out for myself" to see if these things be so--(I was willing to change my view if that's where scripture itself led)--and that is why I came to the firm conclusion I have (since then) that my pastor was indeed correct.

He wasn't always correct on everything, but one thing that stands out was his humility...
...when he discovered that he had been teaching something incorrectly (for years even), but had come to realize his mistake, he would admit this openly and changed his msgs accordingly... an example was when he had formerly taught the "taken" and "left" passages spoke of the "rapture" (which was a very common way to view it back in those days of the 70s--you recall the popular movies put out at the time, right?) A number of years later he realized that's not accurate biblically, and thus changed his sermons accordingly, and acknowledging this openly to us / the congregation. Boy, I really miss him... I have the greatest respect for him.
 
cv5

cv5

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#63
SomeDisciple said:
Do you think Felix would have detained Paul, or Festus and Agrippa would have wasted their time on a guy being accused of preaching "depature"? Paul emphatically denies being guilty of what he is being accused of by the jews because they are accusing him of REBELLION, just like they did Jesus.
Why does Paul and the others deny what the Jews say? Because coming to Jesus would not be described as REBELLION against Moses. How could it be REBELLION when Moses points to Jesus, and the authority comes from him.
Think about it, your post is saying you agree with the Jews charges against Paul- that he was preaching "apostasian".... which Paul denies. Is that really the position you want to take?
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Let me make myself as clear as I can be:
Apostasy means rebellion against spiritual truth. Objective God-given spiritual truth.

You nor anyone else could ever say that Paul was committing apostasy (rebellion against spiritual truth) in Acts 21:21.

The truth is that Paul was performing the act of spiritual obedience by reverently and dutifully preaching the true gospel of God.

For you to say otherwise would make you the apostate.....:oops:

Blows this whole business of "the great apostasy" into the weeds as far as I'm concerned.
 
cv5

cv5

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#64
TheDivineWatermark said:
Yes.

That is what my pastor 45 years ago pointed out in his sermon (though he didn't list out which versions, as you have here), and explained that this was the meaning of our verse under discussion (and he was an excellent pastor who was actually very well-studied). It made perfect sense to me.

It was only years later, when I was in my 20s that I began hearing this passage taught the other way ('a falling away FROM THE FAITH'), which led me to "study this out for myself" to see if these things be so--(I was willing to change my view if that's where scripture itself led)--and that is why I came to the firm conclusion I have (since then) that my pastor was indeed correct.

He wasn't always correct on everything, but one thing that stands out was his humility...
...when he discovered that he had been teaching something incorrectly (for years even), but had come to realize his mistake, he would admit this openly and changed his msgs accordingly... an example was when he had formerly taught the "taken" and "left" passages spoke of the "rapture" (which was a very common way to view it back in those days of the 70s--you recall the popular movies put out at the time, right?) A number of years later he realized that's not accurate biblically, and thus changed his sermons accordingly, and acknowledging this openly to us / the congregation. Boy, I really miss him... I have the greatest respect for him.
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I hear what you're saying. I think the key is that we need to take Scripture very very seriously....and be good stewards and good soil. Good soil needs to be broken up when necessary to maintain its fertility.

Thanks for all of your imputs I really treasure them and have learned a great deal and have modified my views accordingly.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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#65
cv5 said:
I hear what you're saying.
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I hope you didn't miss the part where I said my pastor (45 yrs ago) taught this passage (2Th2:3) refers to our physical / geographical / spatial "departure" (in the rapture)... and the reasons why (pointing out the versions prior to kjv having it as "departure / a departing"). = )
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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rayzor said:
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") leave depart + stand
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cv5 said:
Leave, depart, stand away from the WRATH OF GOD upon the earth....:D

That is the intent of the entire passage vv. 1-10.....reaffirming an earlier teaching, rebuilding confidence in the Thessalonians that their DEPARTURE before the DOTL commences is assured.

The logical inference is that the Thessalonians thought that they had MISSED THE RAPTURE, so Paul writes must needs to codify these passages.

Same thing goes for the other "assembly" and "rapture" passages in both 1&2 Thess.

Where are all of those dozens and hundreds of passages that Paul wrote about CERTAIN MASSIVE SLAUGHTER and extermination of Christians when the son of perdition arises????????? That's right, they don't exist.
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Well you're blinded by the error of pre-trib so you can no longer see the Truth.
Here is some eye salve for you that you may see.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

This other Faithful Witness is the Apostle John - He also wrote in full agreement to 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

Three Faithful Witnesses, the LORD and Apostles Paul and John agree that the 'falling away' is not the rapture but a departure from Truth.
#1.) The LORD - "At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another" - Matt 24:10
#2.) Apostle Paul - "falling away first"
#3.) Apostle John - "they went out from us" -

#1.) The LORD - Abomination of Desolation - Matt 24:15
#2.) Apostle Paul - man of sin shall come first
#3.) Apostle John - the Antichrist is coming and we are already in the last hour for many antichrists are in the world

If you continue to push your error you are seeking to establish a heresy.

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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#67
DavidTree said:
#1.) The LORD - "At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another" - Matt 24:10
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Here is the word in that verse, "G4624 - skandalizó " (Matt24:10)--one word -


Strong's Concordance
skandalizó: to put a snare (in the way), hence to cause to stumble, to give offense
Original Word: σκανδαλίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: skandalizó
Phonetic Spelling: (skan-dal-id'-zo)
Definition: to put a snare (in the way), to cause to stumble, to give offense
Usage: I cause to stumble, cause to sin, cause to become indignant, shock, offend.


HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4624 skandalízō – properly, set a snare ("stumbling-block"); (figuratively) "to hinder right conduct or thought; to cause to stumble" – literally, "to fall into a trap" (Abbott-Smith). See 4625 (skandalon).

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/4624.htm







[speaking of the same time period that 2Th2:[9b]10-12 will be existing... (i.e. future to "our Rapture" ;) )]
 
cv5

cv5

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#68
TheDivineWatermark said:
I hope you didn't miss the part where I said my pastor (45 yrs ago) taught this passage (2Th2:3) refers to our physical / geographical / spatial "departure" (in the rapture)... and the reasons why (pointing out the versions prior to kjv having it as "departure / a departing"). = )
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That is EXACTLY what I believe the passage is indicating. We will be removed from the time and place ("shall have come the departure") of God's wrath aka the 70th week of Daniel...

Which concatenates with Revelation 3:10 of course. And the overall sweeping epic comprehensive message of the new testament Church.
 
cv5

cv5

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#69
DavidTree said:
Well you're blinded by the error of pre-trib so you can no longer see the Truth.
Here is some eye salve for you that you may see.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

This other Faithful Witness is the Apostle John - He also wrote in full agreement to 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

Three Faithful Witnesses, the LORD and Apostles Paul and John agree that the 'falling away' is not the rapture but a departure from Truth.
#1.) The LORD - "At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another" - Matt 24:10
#2.) Apostle Paul - "falling away first"
#3.) Apostle John - "they went out from us" -

#1.) The LORD - Abomination of Desolation - Matt 24:15
#2.) Apostle Paul - man of sin shall come first
#3.) Apostle John - the Antichrist is coming and we are already in the last hour for many antichrists are in the world

If you continue to push your error you are seeking to establish a heresy.

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6
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Yeah....look the Church is nowhere to be found in Matt 24. Consequently you might want to modify your views.
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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cv5 said:
Yeah....look the Church is nowhere to be found in Matt 24. Consequently you might want to modify your views.
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Would you reconsider your words based on Scripture alone?
 
cv5

cv5

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DavidTree said:
Would you reconsider your words based on Scripture alone?
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The problem isn't the Scripture....its you. You are off the rails and in the weeds far more often than not. Really its hopeless. I expect to put you back on ignore anytime soon......
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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cv5 said:
The problem isn't the Scripture....its you. You are off the rails and in the weeds far more often than not. Really its hopeless. I expect to put you back on ignore anytime soon......
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So you are afraid of reviewing Scripture and are unable to back your claims by Scripture.
Sounds like a case of the mumbo-jumbo
 
S

SaltwaterGirl

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#73
#73
cv5 said:
That is EXACTLY what I believe the passage is indicating. We will be removed from the time and place ("shall have come the departure") of God's wrath aka the 70th week of Daniel...

Which concatenates with Revelation 3:10 of course. And the overall sweeping epic comprehensive message of the new testament Church.
Click to expand...
Hi there, cv5. I’m trying to understand what the pre-trib timeline might be. Do you think it will happen in the hour of temptation when Satan sets himself up in Jerusalem? Thanks.
 
S

SaltwaterGirl

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#74
@cv5

In Revelation 2-3, keep in mind that these are church "types.”

Here are the words of Jesus Christ to the church in Philadelphia, one of the two churches that He was pleased with.
​
Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;​
Rev. 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.​
Rev. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

In verse 9, Jesus lets His servants in the church of Philadelphia know that He loves them for what they do. If you are part of that church, you’re in the right place!

[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth​

What is the hour of temptation that the church of Philadelphia escapes? The hour of temptation is that "hour" when the "Tempter" (Satan) is here as the false christ claiming to be the Messiah.

Does that mean then that the church is going to "fly up in the sky" in a pre-trib rapture? No. It means that those with the seal of God in their foreheads, who have abided in His Word, having unlocked all the verses with the key of David, not only won't find Satan tempting, but Christ instructs Satan that he is not allowed to touch even a single hair on their heads. These Christian "bruisers" will be right here, with their feet firmly planted on the ground, walking around with a full suit of gospel armor on and in place. CA4686C7-43A3-406B-A114-7CCA73ACE773.gif

[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.​
​
[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.​

Pillars are those overcoming, steadfast Christians that uphold and support the work and the Word of God. Those overcomers of the church of Philadelphia will get a new name, because there is a marriage about to take place and the bride always gets a new name. EA31BA0D-FB92-4CA8-80D8-9FCDA63819F5.gif
​
 
I

Icedaisey

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#75
Anyone else noticed this and certain related other topics, pretribulation rapture, etc... are bringing out the worst in people?
 
S

SaltwaterGirl

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#76
Icedaisey said:
Anyone else noticed this and certain related other topics, pretribulation rapture, etc... are bringing out the worst in people?
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not me . . . yet. I haven’t yet got riled up. A75C920B-C317-4BAC-AF64-96B841E84FDC.gif
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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This is for everyone so as to recog
Icedaisey said:
Anyone else noticed this and certain related other topics, pretribulation rapture, etc... are bringing out the worst in people?
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How ugly did it get for our Lord when He spoke Truth - the people who reject God's words are the ones with stones in their hands ready to throw them.

Heresy is the function of satan - Genesis 3:1-7 - One little twist of Scripture brought the world into captivity to sin.

Truth is our Sanctification - and our Protection and our Way Home
I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world.
For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.

God does not surrender to the spirit of error - He gives us His Holy Spirit that we may overcome it.
Anyone who "adds to or takes away" from God's words does not have the Holy Spirit as their Guide and Comforter.
The Holy Spirit empowers us to obey His Word and warns us of the spirit of error - to not listen to it's many lies.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

Seek to take Refuge in the Word - Amen
 
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