2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

[cv5]

You are way off base because you're focusing on one verse and not the context! V.24 says the things in V.21 are not true.

I see it-You're insisting that "departure from Moses" in this verse means "departure from the Old Covenant to the new covenant" but that isn't what it says- otherwise Paul and his companions would have never denied the charges against him.

https://christianchat.com/threads/2...ly-describing-the-rapture.201570/post-4661804

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I see the day of the LORD as judgement, a dreaded day.
The day of Christ is something else....we eagerly await....

Yes.

"The day of the Lord" is both "a period of time of JUDGMENTs followed with a period of time of BLESSINGs" (ALL that is "the DOTL," per Scripture);

In the text of 2Th2:2, it is the "judgments" aspect [period of time] that the FALSE CLAIMANTS were purporting "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE".



Paul is saying "NOT[!]" and here's WHY.



ONE THING must happen "FIRST" ("THE DEPARTURE FIRST" [PAUL'S Subject, v.1, v3b])... before it can be TRUTHFULLY STATED that "the DOTL IS PRESENT" [the false claimants' Subject, per v.2]





[to be clear... "the day of the Lord" (ALL earthly-located) and "the day of Christ" (when WE are UP THERE "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him") run CONCURRENTLY... distinct locations, distinct purposes... etc]

 

[SomeDisciple]

The speakers "And they said to him" ARE BELIEVING JEWS. Therefore this is not a lie, a misstatement, a false accusation or a deception. This is a true statement of FACT of what Paul was doing out in the field.

Acts21:20-21
And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

I understand that the speakers are believing Jews; however, they are not the ones who were doing the informing to the other believing Jews in Jerusalem- They are informed of these things from NON-believing Jews.

There are reasons for what they instructed Paul to do afterwards. But no need to cover that here.

Yeah... the text says exactly why Paul does it... Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

The non-believing Jews are telling the newly converted Christians (and the Roman Government) "hey, this guy is lawless and trying to destroy our customs", and this plan of theirs was devised to prove it wasn't true. Paul did not say they had to stop doing Jewish customs- Only that they could not be saved by them.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The word in and of itself does not carry either a "positive" or "negative" connotation... it does not denote only something negative or only something positive, either one.

The context informs just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (whether to "positive" or to "negative" ends or effect).



[speaking of the Greek word "apostasia" / "departure" ]

 

[cv5]

I understand that the speakers are believing Jews; however, they are not the ones who were doing the informing to the other believing Jews in Jerusalem- They are informed of these things from NON-believing Jews.

Yeah... the text says exactly why Paul does it... Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

The non-believing Jews are telling the newly converted Christians (and the Roman Government) "hey, this guy is lawless and trying to destroy our customs", and this plan of theirs was devised to prove it wasn't true. Paul did not say they had to stop doing Jewish customs- Only that they could not be saved by them.

Totally disagree. Paul's confrontation with Peter himself makes it clear that he was likewise teaching ALL the Jews among the gentiles everywhere to depart from the law of Moses and its customs. Circumcision dietary laws (REMEMBER PETER?) the whole shebang. This incident with Peter occurred just before or just after the council of Jerusalem. Long before Acts 21.

To postulate that it was unbelieving Jews that were spreading these reports is sheer speculation. But it doesn't matter because the reports were true.

Personally I think that what they told Paul to do was a big mistake. Exactly the same kind of mistake Peter made earlier.....hypocritically holding to the customs of Moses in a bogus show of piety.

The new Church was supposed to depart obsolete mosaic Judaism the same way Israel was supposed to depart from Egypt. The same way Christians today are supposed to depart from their old life and sin.

I really don't understand what's going through your head but you might want to reread the entire book of Hebrews and Galatians. Holding on to Mosaic Judaism was the problem not departing from it.

I mean for pity's sake Paul called the circumcision the mutilation in Phil 3:2. Then he goes on to state what true circumcision is in 3:3.

If Paul is !!!cursing circumcision!!! you can guarantee that he has completely rejected the law of Moses.....AND IS TEACHING ITS REJECTION.

And you telling me that these reports coming back to Jerusalem are false? Hogwash.

 

[rayzor]

Revelation and Apocalypse(revelation, uncovering,unveiling) are the same word in ancient Greek.

Maybe it should be called harm a getten cause it tends to feed people pride.

 

[cv5]

I understand that the speakers are believing Jews; however, they are not the ones who were doing the informing to the other believing Jews in Jerusalem- They are informed of these things from NON-believing Jews.

Yeah... the text says exactly why Paul does it... Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

The non-believing Jews are telling the newly converted Christians (and the Roman Government) "hey, this guy is lawless and trying to destroy our customs", and this plan of theirs was devised to prove it wasn't true. Paul did not say they had to stop doing Jewish customs- Only that they could not be saved by them.

Definitely some hypocrisy in play....
To what extent we can only guess.

Gal 2:13 - And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him (Peter), so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

 

[cv5]

Definitely some hypocrisy in play....
To what extent we can only guess.

Gal 2:13 - And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him (Peter), so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

Gal 2:14 - But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[fn] compel Gentiles to live as Jews?[fn

 

[rayzor]

Leave, depart, stand away from the WRATH OF GOD upon the earth....

That is the intent of the entire passage vv. 1-10.....reaffirming an earlier teaching, rebuilding confidence in the Thessalonians that their DEPARTURE before the DOTL commences is assured.

The logical inference is that the Thessalonians thought that they had MISSED THE RAPTURE, so Paul writes must needs to codify these passages.

Same thing goes for the other "assembly" and "rapture" passages in both 1&2 Thess.

Where are all of those dozens and hundreds of passages that Paul wrote about CERTAIN MASSIVE SLAUGHTER and extermination of Christians when the son of perdition arises????????? That's right, they don't exist.

cv5 you are being being facetious.and i think your defining codify wrong.

 

[rayzor]

ok it's me that codify wrong in that case,,,,my bad

 

[ResidentAlien]

You got to have really itching ears to believe this stuff. Fastfood theology.

The real issue is the serious problem 2 Thessalonians 2 presents to the pre-tribulation rapture theory. For the pre-trib theory to stand, 2 Thessalonians 2 has to mean something other than what it does.

 

[Yahshua]

No. The text states "that day [the TIME PERIOD from VERSE 2, that the FALSE CLAIM pertained to] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE FIRST and [distinctly]..."



You are doing what many do... you're completely BYPASSING [effectively ELIMINATING] the Subject of v.2 when ascertaining what v.3a is starting out with... (referencing back to, i.e. "THE DAY OF THE LORD" i.e. the earthly-located time period of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME)

...then v.3b tells of what must take place "FIRST" before that time period (of judgments unfolding) can indeed be "PRESENT" (to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME)



IOW, Paul is reaffirming the SEQUENCE (and repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in this 2Th2:3-9a passage, agreeing with the SEQUENCE of both 1Th4 & 5 as well as all other passages of scripture covering this Subject).

The word in and of itself does not carry either a "positive" or "negative" connotation... it does not denote only something negative or only something positive, either one.

The context informs just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (whether to "positive" or to "negative" ends or effect).



[speaking of the Greek word "apostasia" / "departure" ]

I agree with you on this point. And so let's not inject any meaning into the word, and let's let the context explain what the word means.

----

Paul notes two events that must happen prior to "The Day":

1. a "Departure" (whatever it means)
2. a "man of sin revealed" (whatever that means)


...for a Thessalonian who's reading this 2nd letter for the first time, it should be safe to assume that Paul would properly define his terms/concepts (since the entire purpose of his 2nd letter is to alleviate any confusion).


2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (ignoring punctuations and verse separation to consider Paul's complete thought...)
Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a departure first and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God


From the passage, we don't know what departure means just yet but we're given an explanation of what this "man of sin" is and what he will do. So let's continue through the letter to see what else we can learn.


2 Thessalonians 2:5 (complete thought)
Remember ye not that when I was yet with you I told you these things


...So Paul personally told them about these two subjects before...


2 Thess 2:6 (complete thought)
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Again, we don't inject any extra knowledge into the info we're given unless Paul references extra info in the letter itself. So far we're left to infer from the letter that Paul JUST SHARED "what" is withholding "That Day" - in context. As you correctly say, "The Day" is the subject of the letter.

What's withholding the day of Christ & our gather to Him is (1) the departure and (2) that the man of sin is revealed in his time.

Again, we have the man of sin defined but haven't any context for what departure means just yet...the letter continues...


2 Thess 2:7 (complete thought)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way.



The verse above is probably the worst English translation in all of scripture. If I didn't tend to give the benefit of the doubt I'd say this was maliciously mistranslated to force a specific doctrine. The Greek words are:


τὸ [THE = 3588 = definite article] γὰρ [For = 1036 = assigning a reason] μυστήριον [MYSTERY] ἤδη [ALREADY] ἐνεργεῖται [IS WORKING] τῆς [THE = 3588] ἀνομίας· [LAWLESSNESS] μόνον [ONLY] ὁ [THE = 3588] κατέχων [HOLDING FAST] ἄρτι [AT PRESESNT] ἕως [UNTIL] ἐκ [OUT OF] μέσου [MIDST] γένηται. [BECOME/BE].


For...
THE mystery...
already is working...
THE lawlessness...
only THE (only what? In context, only THE mystery lawlessness)...
holds fast...
at present...
until...
out of the midst...
be.

Structured as a modern sentence: For the "mystery lawlessness" is already working. Only THE [mystery lawlessness] holds fast/maintains until out of the midst [the mystery lawlessness] be.


So far, what's withholding the day of Christ & our gather to Him is (1) the departure and (2) that the man of sin is revealed in that man's own time because the secret lawlessness is already working [starting in Paul's time]. Only the secret lawlessness maintains [this] until the secret lawlessness is out of the midst.

Does this explain what the "departure" is? Well, let's read Paul's next thought.


2 Thess 2:8-10 (complete thought)
And then shall that wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming even him whose coming is after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved


Who are the "they"? Paul tells us that two things must happen first before "The Day" comes:

1) a departure
2) a man of sin revealed

He then tells us that a "secret lawlessness" is already at work that will maintain until it's no longer in the midst (of whom?)...AND THEN we're told that wicked will be revealed afterward in the very next thought. So if we follow the same exact order we're given during the first mention, then the departure IS the secret lawlessness of "they".

1) a departure
2) a man of sin revealed

1) secret lawlessness
2) wicked one revealed


2 Thess 2:11-12 (complete thought)
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie that they all might be damned who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness


The pronouns "they" and "them" suggest these folks have already been identified. It is "they that have no love of the truth". Those of the secret lawlessness (already started in Paul's day). Those who depart from the true faith for a lie (that Paul says already started in the 1st century AD). This is from whom the "man of sin" comes (so it stands to reason that this person isn't some military dictator but is someone who comes from a lawless version of the faith).

----

So the departure doesn't mean a snatching away to Messiah, but a falling away from the faith.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The real issue is the serious problem 2 Thessalonians 2 presents to the pre-tribulation rapture theory. For the pre-trib theory to stand, 2 Thessalonians 2 has to mean something other than what it does.

How so? Can you not see that Paul is in fact speaking about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture? So let's take it verse by verse from v 1 to v 14:

PART I
2 Thessalonians 2: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture and the reign of the Antichrist
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
NOTES: 1. There can be no doubt that “the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering unto Him” speaks of the Rapture (see John 14:1-3). So now we need to see the connection of the Rapture to the other events mentioned below.
2. While the apostolic Christians had been taught that the Resurrection/Rapture was to be expected at any time, some false teachers were teaching that the Resurrection/Rapture was already past, and thus troubling the souls of these Christians. If the resurrection was already past, then these Christians had bee left behind instead of being taken up at the Rapture, and that was very disturbing.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
NOTES: 1. Paul was asking the Thessalonian Christians to calm down and not be troubled because there was to be a sequence of events following the Resurrection/Rapture.
2. “The day of Christ” is incorrect in the KJV, but is shown as “the day of the Lord” (Kurios) correctly in the modern versions. Yet it should really be “the day of the LORD” (Yahweh) (as seen in the OT). This is a period of divine wrath and vengeance.
3. Paul was explaining that neither the Resurrection/Rapture was past, nor was the day of the LORD at hand. Why, because there would be other events prior to that.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
NOTES:1. “That day” is the day of the LORD according to this verse. and must be preceded by two events: (1) the Great Apostasy (Gk. apostasia) and (2) the revelation of the Antichrist. So when we take all related prophecies into account, the sequence of events is as follows:
1. The Resurrection/Rapture
2. The Great Apostasy
3. The revelation of the Antichrist
4. The reign of the Antichrist
5. The Abomination of Desolation
6. The Great Tribulation

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
NOTES: 1. The Antichrist will call himself God
2. The Antichrist will taken possession of the future temple at Jerusalem
3. The Antichrist will oppose God and Christ, and at the same time present himself as the true Messiah.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
NOTES: Paul had already explained all this to them in person.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
NOTES:1. The “mystery of iniquity” is the fact that God has not only allowed Satan and his demons to influence mankind since the Fall, but He will actually give Satan and the Antichrist 3 1/2 years to take total control of this world. (Rev 13)
2. “Only He who allows will allow” speaks of God’s allowance in this matter up to this point.
3. “Until He be taken out of the way” speaks of the withdrawal of the presence of the Holy Spirit on earth.
4. When the divine Restrainer -- the Holy Spirit -- stops restraining Satan, then the Antichrist will take total control (as we see in the next verse).
5. Since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church, it is reasonable and logical to conclude that when He is removed from the earth, so is the Church. Thus we arrive at the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, since the reign of the Antichrist and the Tribulation period run together. This is one of the strongest biblical proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
6. Furthermore, from Revelation 6-18 we are given details about the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. But the words “church”, “churches”, or “the Church” will not be found after Revelation 3.
7. We do see the Church is Heaven in Revelation 7, which is further evidence of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

 

[Nehemiah6]

PART II
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
NOTES: 1. “That Wicked” for the Antichrist corresponds to “the Wicked One” for Satan.
2. They both work together, but before Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, the Antichrist (the Beast) and his False Prophet are destroyed at the battle of Armageddon, and cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev 19).
3. “The brightness of His coming” speaks of the Second Coming of Christ with His myriads of saints and angels, also radiating light, and seen as brilliant “clouds” in the sky (Rev 1:7) But prior to that Christ came for His saints so that the Marriage of the Lamb would be fulfilled (Rev 19). This is further evidence of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
4. The first order of business is the battle of Armageddon (Rev 19)
5. The Antichrist is energized and empowered by Satan, and does mighty miracles to deceive the world into thinking that he is the “true” Messiah. But all these miracles are “lying wonders” -- deceptive, dazzling, and damnable.

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
NOTES: 1. These verses speak of the victims of Satan and the Antichrist.
2. Those who hate the truth (which includes Christ who is the Truth), the trueGospel, and Bible truth and are therefore unregenerate will come under strong delusion.
3. They will believe all the lies of the unholy Trinity (the Dragon, the Beast, and the False Prophet) and will therefore take the Mark of the Beast and de damned.
4. Not only do they hate the truth but they have pleasure in unrighteousness. A good example is the Biden administration and the evil Democrats who love abortion and lawlessness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
NOTES: 1. Now Paul turns his focus from evildoers to the true chidlren of God and gives thanks for them.
2. He tells the Thessalonians that God has from the beginning chosen them “to” or “unto” salvation.
3. We should note carefully that Paul does not say “chosen you for salvation” since God offers salvation to all mankind.
4. However “chosen to salvation” speaks of being chosen (elected and predestined) for perfection and glorification, which is the ultimate goal of salvation. This can only happen at the Resurrection/Rapture.
5. But Paul also refers to sanctification, which comes between justification and glorification. God expects His children to be separated from sin, evil, and worldliness, and focused on righteousness and holiness.
6. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that Christians are transformed and sanctified. That also includes belief of the truth (which is only found in the Word of God).

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
NOTES: 1. The Gospel call is eventually for glorification.
2. “Obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” happens only at the Resurrection/Rapture, when Christ supernaturally transforms and perfects His saints, and gives them all immortal glorified bodies.

SUMMARY: This passage is as much about the Resurrection/Rapture as it is about the reign of the Antichrist over those who love not the truth. But there is not a single mention of the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation. So anyone claiming that this passage has nothing to do with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is simply trying to mislead Christians. Anyone who calls this Bible doctrine a “theory” does not know the difference between theory and fact.

 

[DavidTree]

No, you are still confused. "departure" is from the word apostasia.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come an apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That is not rapture like you and others have claimed. It is and always has been an apostasy being spoken about. The rapture is not mentioned in that verse.

When we are given the Holy Spirit and we know His word we receive discernment from God.
Thus we know when something is not right when we are exposed to false teachings/doctrine as the Spirit alerts us by recalling Scripture to us that exposes the error. Scripture cannot lie and the Spirit guides us into all Truth.
This is called discernment and comes to us when we allow ourselves to be trained by the Holy Spirit in the Word.
The more a Child of God abandons themselves from religion and error the more they understand, know an see.

This is exactly what our Lord prayed for us in John 17 -

I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

 

[Runningman]

The real issue is the serious problem 2 Thessalonians 2 presents to the pre-tribulation rapture theory. For the pre-trib theory to stand, 2 Thessalonians 2 has to mean something other than what it does.

Exactly. Now you understand why the pre-tribbers are desperately trying to convince everyone that the "falling away" doesn't mean what the Bible says it means in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

 

[DavidTree]

How so? Can you not see that Paul is in fact speaking about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture? So let's take it verse by verse from v 1 to v 14:

PART I
2 Thessalonians 2: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture and the reign of the Antichrist
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
NOTES: 1. There can be no doubt that “the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering unto Him” speaks of the Rapture (see John 14:1-3). So now we need to see the connection of the Rapture to the other events mentioned below.
2. While the apostolic Christians had been taught that the Resurrection/Rapture was to be expected at any time, some false teachers were teaching that the Resurrection/Rapture was already past, and thus troubling the souls of these Christians. If the resurrection was already past, then these Christians had bee left behind instead of being taken up at the Rapture, and that was very disturbing.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
NOTES: 1. Paul was asking the Thessalonian Christians to calm down and not be troubled because there was to be a sequence of events following the Resurrection/Rapture.
2. “The day of Christ” is incorrect in the KJV, but is shown as “the day of the Lord” (Kurios) correctly in the modern versions. Yet it should really be “the day of the LORD” (Yahweh) (as seen in the OT). This is a period of divine wrath and vengeance.
3. Paul was explaining that neither the Resurrection/Rapture was past, nor was the day of the LORD at hand. Why, because there would be other events prior to that.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

Another Faithful Witness is the Apostle John - He also wrote in full agreement to 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - "the falling away"

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

Three Faithful Witnesses, the LORD and Apostles Paul and John agree that the 'falling away' is not the rapture but a departure from Truth.
#1.) The LORD - "At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another" - Matt 24:10
#2.) Apostle Paul - "falling away first"
#3.) Apostle John - "they went out from us" -

#1.) The LORD - Abomination of Desolation - Matt 24:15
#2.) Apostle Paul - man of sin shall come first
#3.) Apostle John - the Antichrist is coming and we are already in the last hour for many antichrists are in the world

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

Pre-trib is heresy as it completely alters Scripture and lies against the Holy Spirit who spoke thru the Apostles.

 

[DavidTree]

Yeah....look the Church is nowhere to be found in Matt 24. Consequently you might want to modify your views.

Of course She is - who told you She is not in Matthew 24 - not the Bridegroom

John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; John 3:27-29

JESUS is the Bridegroom and His Bride are His Disciples = John 3:27-29

In Matthew 24 His Bride came up to Him and asked Him when His Coming will be:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answered His Bride's question and the answer is Matthew 24: 29-31

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

His Bride was reminded of this again in Acts 1: 9-11

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up,
behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

 

[presidente]

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659341

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659388

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659421

===========================================================================================================

"Yes I totally agree the translators really blew it there. This term is only used twice ln all of the NT.....and it has nothing whatsoever to do with apostasy.

You see, in Acts 21:21, departing from Moses, far from being "apostasy", is actually a POSITIVE and the right thing to do! What do you think Paul was doing when he was preaching in the synagogues? He was encouraging the Jews everywhere to depart from Moses and come to Christ for salvation. The entire book of Hebrews is exhortation to Jews to depart from Moses and come to Christ for salvation."

"In other words the correct and accurate SPIRITUAL, BIBLICAL, application of "apostasia" used in Acts 21:21 would be that of "leaving from a previous standing" TO THE FAITH. Exactly the opposite of spiritual apostasy!
And that is the only contextual touchstone that we possess!"

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"I get what you're saying believe me. But I think it's an error to say that departing from the faith is a concern in either of the instances where this term is being used.

In fact the framework of the 2Thes 2:1-10 is built around some party leaving, some entity departing, BEFORE someone/something is revealed/initiates (vv. 3 and 7). I see nothing about spiritual rebellion among the faithful Thessalonians here. In fact Paul has no concerns about Thessalonians' spiritual condition.......quite the contrary he is only and always COMMMENDING them for their true legitimate faithful believing. They seem to be standouts among the gentiles in that regard.

I truly and honestly think that the translators blew it in this particular case. It is inconceivable to say that departure from obsolete Mosaic Judaism (Acts 21:21) is anything but the right thing to do. How can it be....it is an essential aspect of the gospel message to the Jews! We can both agree that it is a return TO mosaic Judaism that is the apostasy which Paul so passionately rails against in Galatians 3.

I have to tell you I am firmly (very firmly) in the camp of "the departure" being intentionally used to indicate the RAPTURE. This same rapture the Thessalonians already knew about and understood to be true from Paul's earlier ORAL teaching to them. Which is why Paul referred to it AGAIN by codifying "the departure" in 2Thes 2:3, into a written manuscript. Which is perfectly understandable because Paul was writing 2Thes 2:1-10 for the express purpose of reinforcing his earlier teachings on the matter!"

Paul uses the same word to refer to those who shall 'depart from the faith' in the end times. That's what we have in all his epistles about it to give us a clue as to what he's talking about.

In II Thessalonians 1, he'd already told them when Jesus comes back, He is going to give the church rest from them that trouble them, executing vengence on them that know not God.

Also, in I Thessalonians 4, the rapture occurs at the parousia, Christ's coming. In II Thessalonians 2:8, that wicked is destroyed with the brightness of the Lord's coming. So how is the man of sin not even going to be revealed before the 'departing' if the 'departing' happens at the Lord's coming, and the man of sin is destroyed at the Lord's coming? The man of sin has to be revealed before he is destroyed at the coming of the Lord-- and the rapture occurs at the coming of the lord. . To understand the departure/apostacy, look at Paul's words about many departing from the faith. Christ also spoke of the love of many waxing cold.

 

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Paul uses the same word to refer to those who shall 'depart from the faith' in the end times. That's what we have in all his epistles about it to give us a clue as to what he's talking about.

In II Thessalonians 1, he'd already told them when Jesus comes back, He is going to give the church rest from them that trouble them, executing vengence on them that know not God.

Also, in I Thessalonians 4, the rapture occurs at the parousia, Christ's coming. In II Thessalonians 2:8, that wicked is destroyed with the brightness of the Lord's coming. So how is the man of sin not even going to be revealed before the 'departing' if the 'departing' happens at the Lord's coming, and the man of sin is destroyed at the Lord's coming? The man of sin has to be revealed before he is destroyed at the coming of the Lord-- and the rapture occurs at the coming of the lord. . To understand the departure/apostacy, look at Paul's words about many departing from the faith. Christ also spoke of the love of many waxing cold.

You are missing far far too much here for me to comment on in a comprehensive way as I don't have time today.

You fail to comprehend the perfect (and intentional) synchronicity of the statements/actions of Jesus, prophecy of the rapture with the Jewish wedding ritual. Furthermore Gods nature will not allow Him to have the perfectly righteous and holy to suffer HIS wrath along with the wicked.

A perfect comprehension yields the rapture.....it always yields the rapture. Always.

Questions:
-Who are the 24 elders of Revelation? Hint.....read chapter 7.
-Where is the Church identified/located in Revelation after the opening of the first seal?
-Who is doing the preaching of the gospel message after the opening of the first seal?