2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

[Icedaisey]

This is for everyone so as to recog


How ugly did it get for our Lord when He spoke Truth - the people who reject God's words are the ones with stones in their hands ready to throw them.

Heresy is the function of satan - Genesis 3:1-7 - One little twist of Scripture brought the world into captivity to sin.

Truth is our Sanctification - and our Protection and our Way Home
I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world.
For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.

God does not surrender to the spirit of error - He gives us His Holy Spirit that we may overcome it.
Anyone who "adds to or takes away" from God's words does not have the Holy Spirit as their Guide and Comforter.
The Holy Spirit empowers us to obey His Word and warns us of the spirit of error - to not listen to it's many lies.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


A group dedicated to insisting God's word does not mean what it says, and does not say what God means.

That's been the way of it in this world since God's breath first whispered to any one of us.

And here it is again. The subculture of angels of Heaven battling the angels of Hell.

The latter know they lose. That much of truth they cannot deny. Meanwhile, they enjoy the fight. Just to watch how low they can lead some to go.

2 Peter 3:16 As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

[DavidTree]

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


A group dedicated to insisting God's word does not mean what it says, and does not say what God means.

That's been the way of it in this world since God's breath first whispered to any one of us.

And here it is again. The subculture of angels of Heaven battling the angels of Hell.

The latter know they lose. That much of truth they cannot deny. Meanwhile, they enjoy the fight. Just to watch how low they can lead some to go.

2 Peter 3:16 As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

i remember, many years ago, when reading God's word and coming cross 2 Peter 3:16
i said WOW - will you look at this - Peter, the Apostle and leader in the Church has the humility of Christ to recognize
and acknowledge the authority given to Paul(the Apostle) by the Lord and the Holy Spirit and to tell everyone about it.

We can all be like Peter on this forum when we exalt Christ and God's words above our own - Amen.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[quoting excerpt from article by Thomas Ice]


"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy.” This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism."

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read


[end quoting; bold mine]

 

[SomeDisciple]

The truth is that Paul was performing the act of spiritual obedience by reverently and dutifully preaching the true gospel of God.

Acts 21:21 does not refer to Paul preaching the Gospel. It refers to false accusations against Paul. Paul DID NOT teach Jews not to circumcise their children or follow Hebrew customs. He DID say that none of it would earn salvation- but he DID NOT teach that they had to do away with it, AND HE SPENDS THE ENTIRE BOOK OF ACTS AFTER THIS ARGUEING THAT HE DID NOT DO IT!!!!
How can you possibly think that 21:21 refers to the gospel? Do you think Paul denied preaching the Gospel?

 

[cv5]

@cv5

In Revelation 2-3, keep in mind that these are church "types.”

Here are the words of Jesus Christ to the church in Philadelphia, one of the two churches that He was pleased with.

​

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;​

Rev. 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.​

Rev. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

In verse 9, Jesus lets His servants in the church of Philadelphia know that He loves them for what they do. If you are part of that church, you’re in the right place!

[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth​

What is the hour of temptation that the church of Philadelphia escapes? The hour of temptation is that "hour" when the "Tempter" (Satan) is here as the false christ claiming to be the Messiah.

Does that mean then that the church is going to "fly up in the sky" in a pre-trib rapture? No. It means that those with the seal of God in their foreheads, who have abided in His Word, having unlocked all the verses with the key of David, not only won't find Satan tempting, but Christ instructs Satan that he is not allowed to touch even a single hair on their heads. These Christian "bruisers" will be right here, with their feet firmly planted on the ground, walking around with a full suit of gospel armor on and in place. View attachment 231426

[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.​

​

[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.​

Pillars are those overcoming, steadfast Christians that uphold and support the work and the Word of God. Those overcomers of the church of Philadelphia will get a new name, because there is a marriage about to take place and the bride always gets a new name. View attachment 231425

​

<<<It means that those with the seal of God in their foreheads>>>

That group are undoubtedly ethnic Israelites. Never in Scripture is the Church described as Israelites and enumerated by tribe. These are to whom the prophecy of Daniel 9 are written after all. Daniel 9 is not written for the Church.

And we ARE out of here. Church has been raptured before the man of sin is revealed, before the first birth pang, before the first seal is opened, before the 70th week of Daniel starts.

Rev 4:4 -
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

These three things (thrones, white raiment and crowns) are gifts provided by Jesus to His Church. Exclusively. See Jesus' epistles (7 letters) to His Church.

Rev 5:9-10
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Self explanatory....

Seals start to open in Chapter 6.

 

[walknlight]

Hi!
Something else was brought to my attention,
The Day of Christ is not the same as the day of the LORD

God Bless!

 

[DavidTree]

[quoting excerpt from article by Thomas Ice]


"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy.” This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism."

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read


[end quoting; bold mine]

Departure does not change the meaning of what Paul said = It is not the lie of pre-trib rapture which you teach.

The falling away/departure is from the truth just as the our Lord said and the Apostle Paul said and the Apostle John said.

You TDW are not an apostle - maybe a false apostle as you seek to twist scripture continuously and change meanings for your error.

Someone else in 2 Thessalonians does this also - "the man of sin"

Notice what else the APOSTLE Paul says: And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His Coming.

There it is again - the Second Coming of Christ -
Everything is tied to His Coming - the Resurrection, the Rapture, the Judgments

What else did the APOSTLE Paul say:
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul could easily said God chose us for pre-trib rapture - but he did not because it does not exist with God.

What does then??? SALVATION thru Sanctification by the Spirit in belief of the TRUTH.

 

[Hakawaka]

Graspin at straws to convince people that apostasia, where we literally get the word APOSTASY from, means a positive thing such as the church leaving. Even though the actual text says, our gathering together with Him wont happen UNTIL the apostasy and man of sin is revealed.

So:

Our gathering together with Him (rapture) will not happen until the rapture(apostasia) and the man of sin is being revealed.

You got to have really itching ears to believe this stuff. Fastfood theology.

Nothing in any text suggests the Church "leaving" the earth before the second coming of Jesus. Not debatable.

 

[Hakawaka]

I agree "departure" is a good translation; however, it cannot and does not mean the rapture. I already wasted a whole day recently debating this question and I don't intend to waste another. If someone wants it to mean rapture they'll find a way to make it mean rapture no matter how much evidence you present to the contrary.

This was a great post to read and I will heed your advice. I believe it is of God.

With all the evidence and plain Scripture. If people wish to reject it and twist it to something contrary, there is nothing to be done. Its a lost cause to debate it.

I will bow out of the thread. God bless you ResidentAlien.

 

[cv5]

Acts 21:21 does not refer to Paul preaching the Gospel. It refers to false accusations against Paul. Paul DID NOT teach Jews not to circumcise their children or follow Hebrew customs. He DID say that none of it would earn salvation- but he DID NOT teach that they had to do away with it, AND HE SPENDS THE ENTIRE BOOK OF ACTS AFTER THIS ARGUEING THAT HE DID NOT DO IT!!!!
How can you possibly think that 21:21 refers to the gospel? Do you think Paul denied preaching the Gospel?

Nonsense. The key element is that Paul WAS teaching the Jews to depart from the Mosaic Covenant. THATS WHY THE JEWS WERE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO KILL HIM...!

Saul Begins to Preach Christ

Act 9:20
And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Act 9:21
But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

Act 9:22
But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Act 9:23
And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:

Act 9:24
But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.

This incident occurred about 8 years before Acts 21:21. Was Paul teaching Jews to ignore the customs of the Jews? He was....even excoriating PETER for a relapse into the old customs! No doubt he was teaching a doctrine of DEPARTING MOSES completely and had been for a long long time.

Galatians 2:14-16 KJV But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the gentiles to live as do the Jews? (15) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the gentiles, (16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Icedaisey]

Turns out there are more than one Greek scholar who says Apostasia = Rapture.

Apostasia vs Departure For that day will not arrive until the 'departure' comes?

In any case, the church is taken out of the way before the great tribulation arrives. And that can't occur until the Antichrist is made known.

 

[cv5]

Hi!
Something else was brought to my attention,
The Day of Christ is not the same as the day of the LORD

God Bless!

I agree. There is a variant reading of 2Thes 2:1.
The DOTL is favored.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Nonsense.

Then why do the bretheren in verse 24 say that what is in verse 21 is not true? Because they are false accusations. Yeah, the old covenant was done, but that didn't mean Jews had to stop doing their customs.
The Jews that tried to kill Paul made these false accusations to try and make Paul look like he was being lawless, but they weren't true. This is what he says to Felix and Festus- read the chapter.
The only thing Paul gets at Peter from what i can remember is that Judaizers were getting Peter to say Gentiles had to be circumcized to be saved... which was wrong. But he didn't say that Jews couldn't circumcize their kids.

 

[cv5]

Turns out there are more than one Greek scholar who says Apostasia = Rapture.

Apostasia vs Departure For that day will not arrive until the 'departure' comes?

In any case, the church is taken out of the way before the great tribulation arrives. And that can't occur until the Antichrist is made known.

Great article. Very VERY close to my understanding of these matters.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Even though the actual text says, our gathering together with Him wont happen UNTIL the apostasy and man of sin is revealed.

No. The text states "that day [the TIME PERIOD from VERSE 2, that the FALSE CLAIM pertained to] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE FIRST and [distinctly]..."

So:
Our gathering together with Him (rapture) will not happen until the rapture(apostasia) and the man of sin is being revealed.

You are doing what many do... you're completely BYPASSING [effectively ELIMINATING] the Subject of v.2 when ascertaining what v.3a is starting out with... (referencing back to, i.e. "THE DAY OF THE LORD" i.e. the earthly-located time period of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME)

...then v.3b tells of what must take place "FIRST" before that time period (of judgments unfolding) can indeed be "PRESENT" (to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME)



IOW, Paul is reaffirming the SEQUENCE (and repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in this 2Th2:3-9a passage, agreeing with the SEQUENCE of both 1Th4 & 5 as well as all other passages of scripture covering this Subject).

 

[cv5]

Then why do the bretheren in verse 24 say that what is in verse 21 is not true? Because they are false accusations. Yeah, the old covenant was done, but that didn't mean Jews had to stop doing their customs.
The Jews that tried to kill Paul made these false accusations to try and make Paul look like he was being lawless, but they weren't true. This is what he says to Felix and Festus- read the chapter.
The only thing Paul gets at Peter from what i can remember is that Judaizers were getting Peter to say Gentiles had to be circumcized to be saved... which was wrong. But he didn't say that Jews couldn't circumcize their kids.

You are way off base here man. Was Paul TEACHING the DEPARTURE from Moses?

Yes. From the very beginning.

Was this teaching "apostasy"?

No.

 

[Icedaisey]

When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing of His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.

 

[SomeDisciple]

You are way off base here man. Was Paul TEACHING the DEPARTURE from Moses?

You are way off base because you're focusing on one verse and not the context! V.24 says the things in V.21 are not true.

I see it-You're insisting that "departure from Moses" in this verse means "departure from the Old Covenant to the new covenant" but that isn't what it says- otherwise Paul and his companions would have never denied the charges against him.

 

[walknlight]

I agree. There is a variant reading of 2Thes 2:1.
The DOTL is favored.

I see the day of the LORD as judgement, a dreaded day.
The day of Christ is something else....we eagerly await....

Phil. 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (2Th 2:2 AV)

Phil. 1:10 So that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ. Phil. 2:16 Holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
1 Cor. 1:8 Who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

 

[cv5]

Then why do the bretheren in verse 24 say that what is in verse 21 is not true? Because they are false accusations. Yeah, the old covenant was done, but that didn't mean Jews had to stop doing their customs.
The Jews that tried to kill Paul made these false accusations to try and make Paul look like he was being lawless, but they weren't true. This is what he says to Felix and Festus- read the chapter.
The only thing Paul gets at Peter from what i can remember is that Judaizers were getting Peter to say Gentiles had to be circumcized to be saved... which was wrong. But he didn't say that Jews couldn't circumcize their kids.

It is perfectly clear from the text that Paul WAS INDEED teaching "all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs."

The speakers "And they said to him" ARE BELIEVING JEWS. Therefore this is not a lie, a misstatement, a false accusation or a deception. This is a true statement of FACT of what Paul was doing out in the field.

Acts21:20-21
And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

There are reasons for what they instructed Paul to do afterwards. But no need to cover that here.

Apostasian DOES NOT mean "apostasy" in Acts 21:21. It carries with it the inference of OBEDIENCE.